No more laser sight for me

[Cyclops]

As I have grown older, nearing 73 and with both rotator cuffs damaged, I found that handling a large caliber pistol was escaping my ability. Having cut my pistol teeth on the M1911 during my battalion recon days in the Corps, I always gravitated to the .45ACP as a CC gun. A couple of years ago I began to notice that i was not as proficient with that weapon due to my shoulder problems and general loss of strength that one has in their 70s. When the FBI evaluation of the 9mm (with best suited ammo) was publicized I decided to go to 9mm, and I went for the Ruger Lc9 with Hornady Critical Defense ammo. Now I know that there is a lot of controversy about the Lc9 magazines and trigger pull. My Lc9 has no magazine problems. It puts the Hornady rounds into battery just fine. I have no problem with the long trigger pull because if I ever have to do serious business with the gun it is likely to be in 3 to 10 yard range, and trigger pull affect on accuracy will mean little.

All that aside, after a lot of research I decided that I ought to have a laser sight on the Lc9. I bought one, and recently test fired the gun using the laser sight on three occasions. Then I shot targets with the Lc9 regular sights at the same range on three occasions. I had assumed that the laser would be an advantage in targeting, but my practical test comparisons indicated otherwise. I had tighter and nearer center 3 round groups with the Lc9 sights than with the laser sight. That fact made me wonder why so I did the same test several times more, and then it dawned upon me. When I use the Lc9 sights I hit 1 inch left off center again and again. When i used the (zeroed in) laser sight I hit 1 to 3 inches high, left or right off center. The accuracy improving laser sight was just not helping me be more accurate. Obviously, I wondered why.

After a number of dry runs the answer became evident to me. So I tested my theory on the target range. What I discovered was that my concentration on the target was different when I used the laser sight rather than the built in sight. With the built in sight I just did what we do: lined up the target on the front sight and leveled the rear sight to match. I hit within an inch of center over and over again. When I switched to the laser sight I found myself trying to compensate for movement as I watched the green dot move. My focus went from the the target to the green dot. My accuracy was diminished by about 50%.

In the Corps I was trained to shoot for center mass. Even today I would aim at the solar plexus knowing that with a bit of recoil jump I will hit the sternum or nearby. It may not kill, but it will certainly deter. I found that using a human outline target I was better off using the Lc9 sights rather than the laser sight. I did the test a dozen times with the same results. Bottom line: the laser sight (for me) has no advantage in close range shooting. I just sold my laser sight on ebay.

Please understand that I am not condemning laser sights. I am only relating my experience based upon my use of the gear. My inability to adjust to the laser sight is not predictive of another’s experience. For me it reminded me of the days when the built-in sights were all we had in the Corps. We did just fine with them. I am now doing just fine with them again.

[Twoboxer]

Reading your description prompts me to ask if you were able to release a round quicker using the laser than the irons? If so, would you consider that compensation for diminished accuracy?

[Gunsnwater]

Very interesting. Now you should have sold me your laser, cheap.

[frankski]

The wobble in the sight picture is more apparent with a laser (or red dot) than open sights. Initially that can be distracting and, in my case, lead to yanking the trigger when it wobbles over the bullseye rather than steady press-through.

That tendency goes away with practice as you learn to trust your hold.

Shooting in the low light of a crappy indoor range, the difference between target acquisition with open sights compared to laser convinced me to learn to overcome the challenges of the laser. Same thing dry fire practice around a dim basement. For a home defense pistol/revolver, I'm sold on the laser.

[ray h]

Now do another test, shoot with and without the laser with both eyes open, then try shooting from the hip with and without the laser, then try a few shots in quick succession in the dark without your glasses.

I'm not trying to talk you into or out of anything but I think you should consider lasers are not designed to make you more accurate while standing in a nice tight Weaver stance, at a well lit range, when you have all the time in the world to aim.
When you're at the range and you want to be spot on target, use the irons, when you are laying on your belly in a dark parking lot and someone is charging at you with a knife or you're stumbling through your house at night without your glasses, the laser would be a handy tool to have.

I went through the same adjustment woes as you when I got my LCP. I noticed I had stopped focusing on the target because I was looking for that stupid little dot. I took my laser on and off the pistol a few times because I couldn't decide. Eventually I put it on and took it to the range a few times, once I got used to it I stopped searching for the dot and started looking at where the dot was, sort of looking past the dot. To be honest, I don't know if I'm more or less accurate at the range with or without the laser, I don't really care how accurate I am at the range. Don't get me wrong, it's cool to make one big gnarly hole in the ten ring but that has little to do with how a CC or OC weapons system will function in the less than ideal circumstances it's likely you will need the gun for.

[IronButt]

A few years ago I purchased a 1911 that was equipped with laser grips. After a few days of dry firing at evening news anchors, & other TV celebrities, I declared the laser the greatest firearm aiming device ever invented.

When I got to the range it was a different story. I couldn't get a group at 10 yds to save my butt. I went back the next day, thinking that I just need to train with it some more. Same results, so I turned the laser off & went through my usual drills of shooting steel plates, mag changes, shooting on the move, etc, & found that I was back to normal. I then tried it with the laser & after a couple mags decided that I was just wasting ammo.

I went home, ordered a set of VZ grips & sold the laser to another forum member for the price of the VZ's. I'm an old Marine too, so that may have something to do with why my marksmanship sucks with these newfangled aiming devices. Maybe you really can't teach an old Devil Dog new tricks.

My two labs loved the damn laser though.

[soberbyker]

Now do another test, shoot with and without the laser with both eyes open, then try shooting from the hip with and without the laser, then try a few shots in quick succession in the dark without your glasses.

I'm not trying to talk you into or out of anything but I think you should consider lasers are not designed to make you more accurate while standing in a nice tight Weaver stance, at a well lit range, when you have all the time in the world to aim.
When you're at the range and you want to be spot on target, use the irons, when you are laying on your belly in a dark parking lot and someone is charging at you with a knife or you're stumbling through your house at night without your glasses, the laser would be a handy tool to have.

I went through the same adjustment woes as you when I got my LCP. I noticed I had stopped focusing on the target because I was looking for that stupid little dot. I took my laser on and off the pistol a few times because I couldn't decide. Eventually I put it on and took it to the range a few times, once I got used to it I stopped searching for the dot and started looking at where the dot was, sort of looking past the dot. To be honest, I don't know if I'm more or less accurate at the range with or without the laser, I don't really care how accurate I am at the range. Don't get me wrong, it's cool to make one big gnarly hole in the ten ring but that has little to do with how a CC or OC weapons system will function in the less than ideal circumstances it's likely you will need the gun for.

A Weaver stance feels more natural for me because that's how I was taught to shoot, but this guy has some points on why isosceles may be better. Haven't been to the range since I watched this but I do intend on trying it out.



.

[ray h]

My two labs loved the damn laser though.

My lab absolutely goes nuts for the laser. It's a little disturbing, if I ever have to point it at someone I know he's going to run to the light when he should be getting the hell out of the way.

You old Devil Dogs kill me. Tell me you wouldn't have given six months pay for a Red Dot sight on your M16 back in the day?
You guys have a few years on me ("C"co, 1st Recon 84-88) but if I had a Red Dot, GPS or cell phone back then life would've been so much better. So much for the good old days.

[ray h]

A Weaver stance feels more natural for me because that's how I was taught to shoot, but this guy has some points on why isosceles may be better. Haven't been to the range since I watched this but I do intend on trying it out.



.

I like isosceles better as well, I used Weaver as an example because...well, I didn't know how to spell "isosceles" (I'm still not sure it's right, just taking your word for it)

[soberbyker]

The wobble in the sight picture is more apparent with a laser (or red dot) than open sights. Initially that can be distracting and, in my case, lead to yanking the trigger when it wobbles over the bullseye rather than steady press-through.

That tendency goes away with practice as you learn to trust your hold.

Shooting in the low light of a crappy indoor range, the difference between target acquisition with open sights compared to laser convinced me to learn to overcome the challenges of the laser. Same thing dry fire practice around a dim basement. For a home defense pistol/revolver, I'm sold on the laser.

I picked up a 1911 with laser grips a month or so ago and I did notice I was following the bouncing ball more than focusing on the sights but still hitting the target, once I figured out my shake pattern I was able to tighten my grouping. I like the laser but I practice both with and without it in case it should fail when I need it the most.