PGC and Open Carry

[PropCop]

Steve,

I thought I was getting it and then you go and bring up the Sportsman Permit.

You are correct about the contradictions in the various regulations, they confuse the heck out of me.

This is why I didn't hook up with the PGC. Fishing and Boating is much easier.

Thanks for the info

[Ret-Fed]

...
Another issue that came up was let's say I'm archery hunting and carrying a revolver, now legal in PA. Suppose a coyote walks by, can I use my revolver to take the coyote?? Using a revolver to take the coyote is legal, but this retired WCO says I'm archery hunting. Well, I'm not taking a deer, I'm taking another animal with a legal weapon for taking this animal. There is nothing that says I can't do this, but the WCO says it would be illegal.

Title 58, 141.43 (see below) prohibits the possession of a hand gun or long gun (some muzzleloader exceptions) while archery deer hunting. With a PA License to Carry (LtC), Title 34, section 2525, would authorize you to carry your LtC handgun for your personal protection ONLY; it would NOT allow you to use it for hunting. Once you shoot at a coyote, you are now using your LtC handgun for hunting, in addition to personal protection, a violation of 141.43(a)(1).


Title 58 § 141.43. Deer.

(a) Archery season. It is unlawful while hunting deer with a bow and arrow or crossbow during the archery season to:

(1) Possess a firearm, except during the overlaps of the early archery and muzzleloader seasons and the late archery and flintlock muzzleloading seasons, when a person may use and possess both a bow and arrow or crossbow and a muzzleloading firearm only if that person is in possession of both a valid archery license and a valid muzzleloader license and meets the greater protective material requirements for the muzzleloader season, if applicable.

[PropCop]

If Y'all don't stop, i'm gonna hafta curl up in a ball and start sucking my thumb. My head is beginning to hurt.

What about the rule at the SGL range that says all firearms must be unloaded until you get to the firing line. I understand the safety issues, but doesn't this also conflict. At what point are you supposed to unload, in the car? Then reload at the line? Is this safer?

[Ret-Fed]

...
What about the rule at the SGL range that says all firearms must be unloaded until you get to the firing line. I understand the safety issues, but doesn't this also conflict. At what point are you supposed to unload, in the car? Then reload at the line? Is this safer?

Title 34, 2525 would apply for your PA LtC "firearm", but not a long gun.

Be careful with number of rounds in your gun. Specific regulations should be posted at range.

[Steve in PA]

Title 58, 141.43 (see below) prohibits the possession of a hand gun or long gun (some muzzleloader exceptions) while archery deer hunting. With a PA License to Carry (LtC), Title 34, section 2525, would authorize you to carry your LtC handgun for your personal protection ONLY; it would NOT allow you to use it for hunting. Once you shoot at a coyote, you are now using your LtC handgun for hunting, in addition to personal protection, a violation of 141.43(a)(1).


Title 58 § 141.43. Deer.

(a) Archery season. It is unlawful while hunting deer with a bow and arrow or crossbow during the archery season to:

(1) Possess a firearm, except during the overlaps of the early archery and muzzleloader seasons and the late archery and flintlock muzzleloading seasons, when a person may use and possess both a bow and arrow or crossbow and a muzzleloading firearm only if that person is in possession of both a valid archery license and a valid muzzleloader license and meets the greater protective material requirements for the muzzleloader season, if applicable.

The above says nothing about it being illegal to do what I said. How can it be illegal to carry a firearm while archery hunting deer, when the new law says you CAN carry a firearm (handgun) while archery hunting??

Again, if I am small game hunting, and carrying a .357 revolver I can legally shoot something like a coyote or other game that can be taken with the revolver. Doesn't matter if I have a LTC or SP. This is no different that archery hunting.

Where does it state that while archery hunting I cannot use my handgun to take another game animal? 2525 states I cannot hunt or harvest any wildlife with a firearm or ammunition not otherwise permitted by this title. Taking a coyote or other game animal with a handgun is perfectly legal, so how is this not permitted?

[Mosinshooter762]

What about the rule at the SGL range that says all firearms must be unloaded until you get to the firing line. I understand the safety issues, but doesn't this also conflict. At what point are you supposed to unload, in the car? Then reload at the line? Is this safer?

This is what my question involved. While I understand there is no regulation dealing directly with open carrying on state game lands, I was wondering about regulations such as what Propcop just stated.

On the posted regulations on those orange PGC type signs it says;

PROHIBITED ACTS: At rifle and handgun ranges located on land under Commission ownership, except when authorized.
(1) Possess a loaded firearm, except at an established shooting station on the firing line...

What does this exactly cover?

Not meaning to invoke Godwin's law in this thread, but I hear that the PGC can be like Nazi's in their enforcement, so I'm trying to understand their 'law. I don't know if anyone agrees with me, but it seems that the PGCs regulations that have been discussed here are poorly drafted, and vague.

[Steve in PA]

The situation about the ranges is they do not want someone with a loaded firearm (handgun or rifle) anywhere on the range except at the firing line. No walking down to check you target with a loaded, holstered weapon. Does everyone do this? I'm pleading the 5th

[PropCop]

Mosinshooter762

Sorry it took us so long to get to your real question. I guess we really didn't understand your concerns.

You are correct - it is confusing. If the phrase "except when authorized" means OC or CC, you could be ok. But if it means, say, by the Director of the PGC for some special purpose, then you wouldn't. I guess it depends on who is doing the interpreting.

Most of the WCO's and Deputies are good guys, but I've heard stories...

The problem arises is when writing regulations to correct one issue, you sometime create two. The intent is safety, and the rule is similar to what some private range's invoke.

I would hope they would be more concerned about an idiot ripping off a 20 round magazine from an AK at the pistol range that carrying a holstered pistol to the firing line.

Should you do it? Sorry, I don't want to give you any bad advice. Maybe another forum member has had an experience at a SGL range who could give some guidance.

[Booner]

2503 is the PGC version of 6106 (carrying in a vehicle). It can be either OC or CC, but you need to fall into one of the exceptions, which for this discussion means needing a LTC.

However, there are a few things wrong with 2503. One being it does not make an exception for having a Sportman's Permit, whereas 6106 includes the SP. I have had this arguement with a supposed "retired" WCO over on a PA Hunting forum.

The UFA (6106) clearly states that a hunter, in possession of a valid hunting license and a SP can carry concealed while hunting OR going to OR coming from such places. But this WCO tries to bring up 2503 which says no. I have tried several times to show this PGC law is in violation of the UFA, but its like talking to a wall.

Secondly, 2503 only allows the exception for a police officer "on-duty", with no exception for an off-duty police officer to carry his loaded firearm in a vehicle. Of course he has no answer for this. Once again, this PGC law is in violation of the PA gun laws.

2525 allows for a person having a LTC (or falling into an exception like a police officer) to carry a firearm while hunting. This can be any firearm (revolver or semi-auto), however the person can only take an animal with the firearm provided the season permits the use of the firearm. Like deer or bear hunting with a rifle, but I decide to use my revolver to take or put down the animal. The hunter cannot use a semi-auto, since this is not an authorized weapon for hunting.

Another issue that came up was let's say I'm archery hunting and carrying a revolver, now legal in PA. Suppose a coyote walks by, can I use my revolver to take the coyote?? Using a revolver to take the coyote is legal, but this retired WCO says I'm archery hunting. Well, I'm not taking a deer, I'm taking another animal with a legal weapon for taking this animal. There is nothing that says I can't do this, but the WCO says it would be illegal.

John S isn't a supposed "retired" WCO, he retired as chief of the PGC's bureau of law enforcement. I'm not familiar with your exchange with him, however, he and the rest of the PGC's law enforcement bureau are charged with enforcing the law, not writing it. That said, the letter of the law is obvious to all the read it, the spirit of the law is at the discretion of the person enforcing it. I have never heard of a person being cited for open carrying for personal protection. I have seen people cited for carrying during archery season, before it was made legal by a revision of the statute. In one case, a gentleman was carrying a scoped 9" Super Redhawk for protection. It takes all kinds.

[Ret-Fed]

The above says nothing about it being illegal to do what I said. How can it be illegal to carry a firearm while archery hunting deer, when the new law says you CAN carry a firearm (handgun) while archery hunting??

Title 58, 141.43 specifically states that you can't possess any firearm (muzzleloader exceptions) while archery hunting deer. Title 34, 2525 permits possessing a firearm FOR PROTECTION ONLY. Once you use that firearm to shoot at wildlife, you are violating 141.43, since now you are possessing a firearm for hunting, not just personal protection.

Again, if I am small game hunting, and carrying a .357 revolver I can legally shoot something like a coyote or other game that can be taken with the revolver. Doesn't matter if I have a LTC or SP. This is no different that archery hunting.

That is correct because there is no Title 34/58 language that prohibits possession of a firearm while hunting small game. Title 58 141.43 specifically states that you can't possess any firearm while archery hunting deer.

Where does it state that while archery hunting I cannot use my handgun to take another game animal? 2525 states I cannot hunt or harvest any wildlife with a firearm or ammunition not otherwise permitted by this title. Taking a coyote or other game animal with a handgun is perfectly legal, so how is this not permitted?

Remember 2525 only gives you the authority to carry for personal protection. It does not permit using a handgun for purposes that are regulated as being unlawful, such as possessing a firearm while archery hunting. You are perfectly legal to carry for personal protection while archery hunting (with a LtC), but once you use (i.e.possess) it for hunting you violate 141.43(a)(1).