Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 31
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    York Springs, Pennsylvania
    (Adams County)
    Posts
    131
    Rep Power
    505703

    Default Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement

    I am not a BoD but was at a meeting and listened. I believe we are lucky that all the ranges were not closed down.
    Perhaps. Range 8 had already been freshly renovated. The trap range and archery range aren't really any cause for concern. The indoor range's pressing issues were dealt with a few years ago. But we lost about all we could have lost.

    The closing appears to be the result of the recommendations from the firm of " Fredrick M. Wentling" Firearm & Tool Mark Examiner. I forgot all of his credentials. I though he said he was retired from a state police office..but do not quote me...
    Fred Wentling is a well-credentialed expert in crime scene forensics. Not range design. He was brought in by the majority members of the Board of Directors in order to "cover their butts" AFTER some of us members got really angry about the new range rules they adopted in August. He was brought in to justify the new range rules, but he did NOT do that. (He couldn't. He'd never even read the old rules. He hadn't very deeply read the NEW ones either.) Instead he passed judgment on the ranges themselves, and his judgment was, "You couldn't PAY me to shoot here!"

    His study was quite expensive... I forgot the amount... big bucks.
    About $2,800. Which exceeded the Board's right to pay without seeking the Membership's approval. Yet another failing of the old Board.

    He is really responsible for the close down of the rifle range....not the board. He "basically" said it was an accident waiting to happen. If you notice... all the pistol ranges are also closed.
    Look, Fred was just brought in as a tool to use against the Membership, because the Membership wasn't going along with the Board majority's pet plan. He did what he thought he had to do. The decision to shut down the ranges was the BOARD's call in every case. I sat in on the meeting where they made that initial call, though that was only for closing about half of the pistol bays. They closed the rest of them within another day or two.

    OK,do not grill me. Contact Mr. Wentling. But he probably will not talk to you unless you write a big check$$$.
    There's really no reason to contact Mr. Wentling. He wrote his report and that's that. He doesn't have any authority to shut down our ranges or to open them up again. Your beef is with certain members of the old Board of Directors (and the old Range Rules Committee).

    However, three of those Board members have already resigned. And we have a GREAT new selection of folks to take over those positions and several others. Again, I'll be happy to give you the names if you send me a PM.

    (THREE of the old Board members have been YOUR representatives and allies through all of this. They are our Vice President, Membership Secretary, and Treasurer. They are running again. PLEASE SUPPORT THEM!)

    If you come to the meeting, how about some positive support. NRA will send out a man or woman to survey the range and for only about $300.00 bucks and provide the club with some positive guidance on range development.
    We may indeed end up asking NRA for some help, though that doesn't come without some serious strings attached, so we have to do things with eyes wide open. We shall see. Come out to the meetings in the new year and help the NEW Board make some of the hard decisions coming up!

    Let us not start a pissing contest. That will solve nothing. I was at the last meeting and too many people spent their time pissing in each others faces instead of developing rational solutions.
    No need for that sort of thing.

    However, THIS MONTH (Nov. 25th, in fact) is your chance to vote for the folks who will sort this mess out in the new year. I strongly recommend you come out and vote for a new batch of knowledgeable, involved, accountable people to help us move past this rough chapter in WSSA history.
    --Sam

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Dover, Pennsylvania
    (York County)
    Posts
    423
    Rep Power
    47148

    Default Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam1911 View Post
    Well, uh, first off, no Range 8 doesn't share any berms with the rifle range. Range 8 was completely rebuilt a year or so ago and has it's own berm roughly at the position of about 60 yards down the rifle range.
    berm noun \ˈbərm\
    : a small hill or wall of dirt or sand

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/berm

    Not to get confrontational... but I think you are confusing the word "berm" with "backstop"
    Attached Images Attached Images
    I want your vz.33

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    York Springs, Pennsylvania
    (Adams County)
    Posts
    131
    Rep Power
    505703

    Default Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement

    Ok, thanks.

    Ranges 8 and 9 do not share a backstop berm. There is a low berm that separates the two, that we do not shoot at.

    However, the relevant matters under discussion are unchanged by your clarifying remark.
    Last edited by Sam1911; November 23rd, 2014 at 10:14 PM. Reason: Her
    --Sam

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania
    (Cumberland County)
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement

    If you come to the meeting, how about some positive support. NRA will send out a man or woman to survey the range and for only about $300.00 bucks and provide the club with some positive guidance on range development.

    We may indeed end up asking NRA for some help, though that doesn't come without some serious strings attached, so we have to do things with eyes wide open. We shall see. Come out to the meetings in the new year and help the NEW Board make some of the hard decisions coming up!

    WHAT are those "SERIOUS STRINGS ATTACHED" ?????? My understanding is that they provide their assessment and advise. What is this "string" that you are referring to???

    Seems that right now.. all we have is an official study that has forced the club to halt operations....with no constructive suggestions to correct what he reported as being deficient. What is wrong with a second opinion from and agency who has range experts?

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    York Springs, Pennsylvania
    (Adams County)
    Posts
    131
    Rep Power
    505703

    Default Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement

    WHAT are those "SERIOUS STRINGS ATTACHED" ?????? My understanding is that they provide their assessment and advise. What is this "string" that you are referring to???
    That's a good question for tomorrow night. I know that possibility was discussed before, and very well may be worth considering, but some who had worked with NRA on these matters expressed that there were things the club needed to consider before requesting that assistance. If I remember correctly there are issues of insurance which most clubs work with the NRA to get. If we solicit their investigations and inputs we may be bound to follow their dictates or lose our insurance. I'm not 100% sure that's the only problem or the biggest one.

    As I am not one of those people, you'll have to ask if anyone in attendance tomorrow night understands the matter more fully.

    Seems that right now.. all we have is an official study that has forced the club to halt operations...
    Again, no. We have a fairly brief overview study provided by an expert in criminal forensics (that is, solving murders and such ... NOT range design), that describes some potential problems with certain conditions on the ranges.

    And we have a DECISION by the former Board of Directors to shut down the ranges. The study didn't (and couldn't) force anyone to do anything. Just as no factor FORCED the Board to bring in the expert to begin with. These are just decisions made by several individuals -- most of whom have now resigned their positions.

    ....with no constructive suggestions to correct what he reported as being deficient.
    Respectfully, I don't think you know what you don't know. But I can help with that ...

    First off, there was ALREADY a plan underway, for about two years now, to fix many of these issues as 90% of the things the expert identified were already known to the Association. The Board had been working with two different engineering companies to design a series of range improvements that would raise the berms, remove rocks, and erase many of the problems the expert noted. Those plans had been stalled through mismanagement and permitting issues, but bids have already been obtained from some excavating firms to do significant portions of the work.

    There are worries now that the changes are going to prove more extensive than our finances will allow -- especially with added environmental controls for sediment and runoff -- but those are all factors the new Board will have to sort out.

    What is wrong with a second opinion from and agency who has range experts?
    Nothing, on the face of it. And NRA may indeed be invited to assist, once the new Board has a sound understanding of what's already been worked out, and what needs to be done. And how asking for that help may affect our Association.

    -------------------

    Once again it might be important to point out that there are several issues involved in this whole kerfuffle.

    1) Range improvements needed for a long time, and in the planning/permitting process already.

    2) A new set of very restrictive and arbitrary range rules which were inflicted upon the membership in a really underhanded move by certain members of the old Board and Range Rules Committee. Range rules which included wildly odd and pointless restrictions completely unrelated to the deteriorating conditions of the ranges or anything but one guy's personal quirks and prejudices.

    3) Attempted justification of the new rules by tying them to the range improvements issues, and "critical" needs to all-of-a-sudden restrict the activities on the ranges.

    4) Revolt by the Membership at being saddled with these rules and utter rejection of the half-arsed justifications for them offered by the Board.

    5) Scrambling by the Board to cover their butts by calling in an expert from a semi-related field to give his blessing that their new rules were absolutely required for continued safe operation of the ranges.

    6) Way, way over-reach by that expert to the point of completely condemning the ranges as universally unsafe for almost any shooting. ("You couldn't pay me to shoot here!")

    7) Old Board of Directors backed into a corner now having called in an expert to cover their butts, and finding they have to either refute their own expert's comments, or close down the ranges. Ranges closed.

    8) Membership revolt turns into a minor-league riot.

    9) Serious and high-quality folks nominated to take over almost all of the Board seats from the old officers who got us into this mess. Old Board of Detectors majority members find that they have an approval rating among the Membership so low they probably couldn't be elected to clean the bathrooms.

    10) Most of the old Board resigns their positions.

    11) Tomorrow night -- 11/25/14 7:00 PM. Officer elections. Replacements for seven of the Board positions, most of whom appear to have already stepped down.

    12) Moving forward: The new Board will have to pick up the pieces and see where we are with contractors and permits, obtain solid quotes for the work, and come up with a few options for how to spend our money that we can present to the Members for a decision ASAP. We'll also need to seat a whole new Range Rules Committee who will have the difficult task of matching up GOOD, reasonable, range rules with whatever conditions we'll be able to produce on each bay, pit, or range. Also some Constitutional and By-Laws changes to try and ensure that the Membership is always and forever in the driver's seat (by fair and free vote) and no Board can try to sneak around and trick or force the Membership.
    Last edited by Sam1911; November 25th, 2014 at 01:26 AM.
    --Sam

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    York Springs, Pennsylvania
    (Adams County)
    Posts
    131
    Rep Power
    505703

    Default Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement

    I'd also like to point out that all of these range issues -- all the grave dangers that the Association has been working on getting fixed for several years now, and that the "expert" pointed out -- are EXACTLY the same conditions prevalent at just about every shooting club in this region.

    1) We have some steel plate and hanging gong targets. These might cause ricochets. Some are older and getting a little pock-marked. Some are nearly new and made from 3/4" thick armor (A500 type) steel and show no damage. A bullet or bullet fragment could come off of one of those and hit someone or go somewhere it wasn't intended to.

    2) We have some side berms and maybe a couple of rear berms which aren't really as high as they probably should be.

    3) We have rocks on the ranges. Some big ones in the rear berms. One range floor has exposed bedrock. Again, ricochets.

    4) The other side of the mountain we shoot at is a heavily populated area which includes the Rt. 83 corridor south of Harrisburg. A round launched OVER the mountain would be bad.

    I shoot fairly regularly at a collection of maybe 20 rifle and pistol clubs around the PA and MD area. EVERY SINGLE ONE of them has these exact same potential problems, or parallels to them, to some degree or another.

    Just about every one of us who's spent much time shooting on outdoor ranges has stopped to think about the potential risks of these activities and has determined that we accept those risks. We might get hit with a bullet fragment or ricochet. (If you've been shooting long, you already have caught more than a few I'm sure.) We wear our safety glasses and take our chances. We know that if we press the trigger with the muzzle elevated, we'll shoot a round that will leave the range. We take that seriously and DON'T do that.

    This current fever pitch of worry that has overtaken WSSA's old Board is completely beyond any level of hand-wringing I've ever heard of among shooters. And it is all artificial. All drummed up as an overblown justification for the necessity of passing these bad range rules.

    I sat across the room from one of these old Board members last week as he literally trotted out the "think of the CHILDREN!" line -- claiming that we had to keep the temporary ban on steel targets in place because WHAT IF SOMEONE BROUGHT THEIR CHILD TO THE RANGE as surely they'd be hit by a ricochet and WHO would EXPOSE their CHILD to that?!?

    I couldn't believe it. This fellow has been shooting for probably 45 years, deeply involved in practical/action shooting for at least 30 of those, and has put more rounds on steel plates and poppers than you could imagine. And yet in the vehemence of his defense of what they tried to do, he's now like the repentant prodigal son preaching the horrors of his old evil ways.

    Makes your head swim...
    --Sam

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania
    (Cumberland County)
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement

    Thanks for the background history and clarification of the issues.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Camp Hill, Pennsylvania
    (Cumberland County)
    Age
    36
    Posts
    588
    Rep Power
    3659

    Default Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement

    I attended the meeting tuesday night. I learned a lot. What I got from it is that the ranges are being closed due to the concern of the now former president being concerned about liability. They were not forced to close them. it was a choice made by the president.

    I say hang signs that say shoot at your own risk and let people shoot until it's fixed. that way people can still shoot.

    otherwise they stand to loose a lot of their membership which would be a problem.

    I will be curious to see how the new leaders will address this situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Helter View Post
    Crazy people will always find ways to do their crazy.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    York Springs, Pennsylvania
    (Adams County)
    Posts
    131
    Rep Power
    505703

    Default Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement

    Ironically, if you stop just as you're entering the gate and read the large white sign on the right, that's exactly what it DOES say. And has for years.

    (Not that any such policy or even a waver signed by each member would relieve the Association of liabilities for unsafe conditions.)

    We will indeed have to balance safety, liability, and service to the members. We don't want to lose anyone, and every one of us wants to get back to shooting as much as you do.

    In discussing this with some of my fellow (new) Board members I think the working plan is to figure out how we can most quickly get some more of the ranges opened up. I doubt that's going to be as simple as just declaring them open. But the work to open up some is a lot less costly than the work needed to make the rifle range safe. At any rate there are going to be some hard decisions to make.

    Please stay involved and add your voice to the discussions as we move forward!
    Last edited by Sam1911; November 26th, 2014 at 10:43 PM.
    --Sam

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Laporte, Pennsylvania
    (Dauphin County)
    Posts
    430
    Rep Power
    228412

    Default Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement

    Loved that club!

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. West Shore Sportsmen's Association
    By Dangerdan in forum PA Dutch Country/Hershey Region
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: July 12th, 2013, 02:02 AM
  2. West Shore Sportsman's Association
    By pokerguy005 in forum Ranges
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: February 1st, 2012, 11:28 PM
  3. West Shore Sportsmen's Association
    By RJH245 in forum General
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: September 7th, 2008, 10:28 AM
  4. West Shore Sportsmen's Assoc IDPA?
    By luckyned7 in forum General
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: June 29th, 2007, 06:59 AM
  5. West Shore Sportsmen - indoor range
    By FRISteve in forum General
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: May 13th, 2007, 05:25 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Local gun shops | Local shooting ranges | Philadelphia Shooting Ranges | Philadelphia Gun Shops | Pittsburgh Shooting Ranges | Pittsburgh Gun Shops