Results 21 to 30 of 31
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November 18th, 2014, 10:29 PM #21Active Member
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York Springs,
Pennsylvania
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Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement
I am not a BoD but was at a meeting and listened. I believe we are lucky that all the ranges were not closed down.
The closing appears to be the result of the recommendations from the firm of " Fredrick M. Wentling" Firearm & Tool Mark Examiner. I forgot all of his credentials. I though he said he was retired from a state police office..but do not quote me...
His study was quite expensive... I forgot the amount... big bucks.
He is really responsible for the close down of the rifle range....not the board. He "basically" said it was an accident waiting to happen. If you notice... all the pistol ranges are also closed.
OK,do not grill me. Contact Mr. Wentling. But he probably will not talk to you unless you write a big check$$$.
However, three of those Board members have already resigned. And we have a GREAT new selection of folks to take over those positions and several others. Again, I'll be happy to give you the names if you send me a PM.
(THREE of the old Board members have been YOUR representatives and allies through all of this. They are our Vice President, Membership Secretary, and Treasurer. They are running again. PLEASE SUPPORT THEM!)
If you come to the meeting, how about some positive support. NRA will send out a man or woman to survey the range and for only about $300.00 bucks and provide the club with some positive guidance on range development.
Let us not start a pissing contest. That will solve nothing. I was at the last meeting and too many people spent their time pissing in each others faces instead of developing rational solutions.
However, THIS MONTH (Nov. 25th, in fact) is your chance to vote for the folks who will sort this mess out in the new year. I strongly recommend you come out and vote for a new batch of knowledgeable, involved, accountable people to help us move past this rough chapter in WSSA history.--Sam
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November 23rd, 2014, 10:05 PM #22
Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement
berm noun \ˈbərm\
: a small hill or wall of dirt or sand
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/berm
Not to get confrontational... but I think you are confusing the word "berm" with "backstop"I want your vz.33
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November 23rd, 2014, 10:11 PM #23Active Member
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York Springs,
Pennsylvania
(Adams County) - Posts
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Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement
Ok, thanks.
Ranges 8 and 9 do not share a backstop berm. There is a low berm that separates the two, that we do not shoot at.
However, the relevant matters under discussion are unchanged by your clarifying remark.Last edited by Sam1911; November 23rd, 2014 at 10:14 PM. Reason: Her
--Sam
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November 25th, 2014, 12:12 AM #24Junior Member
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- Oct 2013
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Mechanicsburg,
Pennsylvania
(Cumberland County) - Posts
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Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement
If you come to the meeting, how about some positive support. NRA will send out a man or woman to survey the range and for only about $300.00 bucks and provide the club with some positive guidance on range development.
We may indeed end up asking NRA for some help, though that doesn't come without some serious strings attached, so we have to do things with eyes wide open. We shall see. Come out to the meetings in the new year and help the NEW Board make some of the hard decisions coming up!
WHAT are those "SERIOUS STRINGS ATTACHED" ?????? My understanding is that they provide their assessment and advise. What is this "string" that you are referring to???
Seems that right now.. all we have is an official study that has forced the club to halt operations....with no constructive suggestions to correct what he reported as being deficient. What is wrong with a second opinion from and agency who has range experts?
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November 25th, 2014, 12:48 AM #25Active Member
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York Springs,
Pennsylvania
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Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement
WHAT are those "SERIOUS STRINGS ATTACHED" ?????? My understanding is that they provide their assessment and advise. What is this "string" that you are referring to???
As I am not one of those people, you'll have to ask if anyone in attendance tomorrow night understands the matter more fully.
Seems that right now.. all we have is an official study that has forced the club to halt operations...
And we have a DECISION by the former Board of Directors to shut down the ranges. The study didn't (and couldn't) force anyone to do anything. Just as no factor FORCED the Board to bring in the expert to begin with. These are just decisions made by several individuals -- most of whom have now resigned their positions.
....with no constructive suggestions to correct what he reported as being deficient.
First off, there was ALREADY a plan underway, for about two years now, to fix many of these issues as 90% of the things the expert identified were already known to the Association. The Board had been working with two different engineering companies to design a series of range improvements that would raise the berms, remove rocks, and erase many of the problems the expert noted. Those plans had been stalled through mismanagement and permitting issues, but bids have already been obtained from some excavating firms to do significant portions of the work.
There are worries now that the changes are going to prove more extensive than our finances will allow -- especially with added environmental controls for sediment and runoff -- but those are all factors the new Board will have to sort out.
What is wrong with a second opinion from and agency who has range experts?
-------------------
Once again it might be important to point out that there are several issues involved in this whole kerfuffle.
1) Range improvements needed for a long time, and in the planning/permitting process already.
2) A new set of very restrictive and arbitrary range rules which were inflicted upon the membership in a really underhanded move by certain members of the old Board and Range Rules Committee. Range rules which included wildly odd and pointless restrictions completely unrelated to the deteriorating conditions of the ranges or anything but one guy's personal quirks and prejudices.
3) Attempted justification of the new rules by tying them to the range improvements issues, and "critical" needs to all-of-a-sudden restrict the activities on the ranges.
4) Revolt by the Membership at being saddled with these rules and utter rejection of the half-arsed justifications for them offered by the Board.
5) Scrambling by the Board to cover their butts by calling in an expert from a semi-related field to give his blessing that their new rules were absolutely required for continued safe operation of the ranges.
6) Way, way over-reach by that expert to the point of completely condemning the ranges as universally unsafe for almost any shooting. ("You couldn't pay me to shoot here!")
7) Old Board of Directors backed into a corner now having called in an expert to cover their butts, and finding they have to either refute their own expert's comments, or close down the ranges. Ranges closed.
8) Membership revolt turns into a minor-league riot.
9) Serious and high-quality folks nominated to take over almost all of the Board seats from the old officers who got us into this mess. Old Board of Detectors majority members find that they have an approval rating among the Membership so low they probably couldn't be elected to clean the bathrooms.
10) Most of the old Board resigns their positions.
11) Tomorrow night -- 11/25/14 7:00 PM. Officer elections. Replacements for seven of the Board positions, most of whom appear to have already stepped down.
12) Moving forward: The new Board will have to pick up the pieces and see where we are with contractors and permits, obtain solid quotes for the work, and come up with a few options for how to spend our money that we can present to the Members for a decision ASAP. We'll also need to seat a whole new Range Rules Committee who will have the difficult task of matching up GOOD, reasonable, range rules with whatever conditions we'll be able to produce on each bay, pit, or range. Also some Constitutional and By-Laws changes to try and ensure that the Membership is always and forever in the driver's seat (by fair and free vote) and no Board can try to sneak around and trick or force the Membership.Last edited by Sam1911; November 25th, 2014 at 01:26 AM.
--Sam
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November 25th, 2014, 01:11 AM #26Active Member
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York Springs,
Pennsylvania
(Adams County) - Posts
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Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement
I'd also like to point out that all of these range issues -- all the grave dangers that the Association has been working on getting fixed for several years now, and that the "expert" pointed out -- are EXACTLY the same conditions prevalent at just about every shooting club in this region.
1) We have some steel plate and hanging gong targets. These might cause ricochets. Some are older and getting a little pock-marked. Some are nearly new and made from 3/4" thick armor (A500 type) steel and show no damage. A bullet or bullet fragment could come off of one of those and hit someone or go somewhere it wasn't intended to.
2) We have some side berms and maybe a couple of rear berms which aren't really as high as they probably should be.
3) We have rocks on the ranges. Some big ones in the rear berms. One range floor has exposed bedrock. Again, ricochets.
4) The other side of the mountain we shoot at is a heavily populated area which includes the Rt. 83 corridor south of Harrisburg. A round launched OVER the mountain would be bad.
I shoot fairly regularly at a collection of maybe 20 rifle and pistol clubs around the PA and MD area. EVERY SINGLE ONE of them has these exact same potential problems, or parallels to them, to some degree or another.
Just about every one of us who's spent much time shooting on outdoor ranges has stopped to think about the potential risks of these activities and has determined that we accept those risks. We might get hit with a bullet fragment or ricochet. (If you've been shooting long, you already have caught more than a few I'm sure.) We wear our safety glasses and take our chances. We know that if we press the trigger with the muzzle elevated, we'll shoot a round that will leave the range. We take that seriously and DON'T do that.
This current fever pitch of worry that has overtaken WSSA's old Board is completely beyond any level of hand-wringing I've ever heard of among shooters. And it is all artificial. All drummed up as an overblown justification for the necessity of passing these bad range rules.
I sat across the room from one of these old Board members last week as he literally trotted out the "think of the CHILDREN!" line -- claiming that we had to keep the temporary ban on steel targets in place because WHAT IF SOMEONE BROUGHT THEIR CHILD TO THE RANGE as surely they'd be hit by a ricochet and WHO would EXPOSE their CHILD to that?!?
I couldn't believe it. This fellow has been shooting for probably 45 years, deeply involved in practical/action shooting for at least 30 of those, and has put more rounds on steel plates and poppers than you could imagine. And yet in the vehemence of his defense of what they tried to do, he's now like the repentant prodigal son preaching the horrors of his old evil ways.
Makes your head swim...--Sam
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November 25th, 2014, 08:27 PM #27Junior Member
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Mechanicsburg,
Pennsylvania
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Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement
Thanks for the background history and clarification of the issues.
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November 26th, 2014, 08:33 PM #28
Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement
I attended the meeting tuesday night. I learned a lot. What I got from it is that the ranges are being closed due to the concern of the now former president being concerned about liability. They were not forced to close them. it was a choice made by the president.
I say hang signs that say shoot at your own risk and let people shoot until it's fixed. that way people can still shoot.
otherwise they stand to loose a lot of their membership which would be a problem.
I will be curious to see how the new leaders will address this situation.
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November 26th, 2014, 09:47 PM #29Active Member
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York Springs,
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Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement
Ironically, if you stop just as you're entering the gate and read the large white sign on the right, that's exactly what it DOES say. And has for years.
(Not that any such policy or even a waver signed by each member would relieve the Association of liabilities for unsafe conditions.)
We will indeed have to balance safety, liability, and service to the members. We don't want to lose anyone, and every one of us wants to get back to shooting as much as you do.
In discussing this with some of my fellow (new) Board members I think the working plan is to figure out how we can most quickly get some more of the ranges opened up. I doubt that's going to be as simple as just declaring them open. But the work to open up some is a lot less costly than the work needed to make the rifle range safe. At any rate there are going to be some hard decisions to make.
Please stay involved and add your voice to the discussions as we move forward!Last edited by Sam1911; November 26th, 2014 at 10:43 PM.
--Sam
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November 26th, 2014, 10:30 PM #30Senior Member
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Laporte,
Pennsylvania
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Re: West Shore Sportsmen's Association - Range Closure Announcement
Loved that club!
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