Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS

    Quote Originally Posted by TeflonDon View Post
    I recieved a DUI back in 2012 and recieved the ARD program also it was my first offense. I have made 2 purchases in 2014 as well as obtained 2 states permits have had no issues..
    So something stuck?

    A few days ago I was shopping at the Pottstown Walmart. I saw a customer struggling with the PICS computer. The employee told him to do it again. I heard the customer say something about a gift. I am not sure what happened then but the guy was still having a hard time. The customer kept looking at the screen made me think he couldn't read, or not to well. I didn't want to stick my nose in it, or become part of a straw purchase. After walking away it occurred to me that perhaps he was having an issue with the question, are you the actual purchaser of the firearm? IDK what happened in the end but for the customers sake I hope he doesn't get in trouble for having reading or comprehension issues!
    “Proclaim Liberty throughout all the Land unto all the Inhabitants thereof.

  2. #62
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    Dec 2007
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    412/724, Pennsylvania
    (Butler County)
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    Default Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS

    You'd like to think these gents at Dicks (spit) were shanghaied. You'd be wrong.

    Mr Wilson has a decade long history of summary offenses (mostly disorderly, with some harassment tossed in) and misdemeanors. The fact that the 302 is what triggered this is basically Darwin at work. That's just with his history in Butler county courts. I was too lazy to check the entire state.

    Witas seems to be guilty of nothing more than clean living and a 302 prior (and buying a gun at Dicks, but Emptymag's ire is not an F3 and jail time).

    The third guy looks to have been popped with a second DUI in 10 years at the highest BAC. I'm guessing they'd have told him in ARD school the first time what the penalties are.

    I am somewhat ambivalent about this. 2 of the 3 probably had bad things coming or should've known. Without knowing the circumstances of the second guy's 302, that one looks potentially suspect.

    I suppose this is why, in a township with more than one cop on its force per thousand residents, I still can't get police service in a reasonable period of time......
    Trump. Duh. Really? Who would fall for that? -- Thanks, Pilot321 for the inspiration

  3. #63
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    Nov 2015
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    Williamsport, Pennsylvania
    (Lycoming County)
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    Default Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS

    Would attempting to get a LTCF before buying a gun be a good way to be 100% certain you are in the clear? The application, at least in Lycoming county, specifically uses wording like "to the best of my knowledge and belief" and "knowingly make false statements" in the questions.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS

    Quote Originally Posted by njexile View Post
    Would attempting to get a LTCF before buying a gun be a good way to be 100% certain you are in the clear? The application, at least in Lycoming county, specifically uses wording like "to the best of my knowledge and belief" and "knowingly make false statements" in the questions.
    You would avoid some charges, but there's still the false statements, in writing, to a government official. So it might be less risky, at the moment, but you have to remember that as recent as 3 years ago, very few PICS denials were being prosecuted. Now, most of them are prosecuted. So the LTCF application process in 2015 is kind of like the PICS gun purchase process in 2011; definite risk, but not much prosecution, yet.

    Further, they've set the system up so that it's hard to be 100% sure of anything, if there was any kind of incident in your past. A lot of records are hard for you to find, or just unavailable except to the government.

    I get plenty of clients who have been buying guns for years, getting approved by PICS, and then suddenly some 20 year old record shows up and they get denied. PICS just missed it all those years, for whatever reason. So there's no "100%", unless you've never been arrested or cited or taken anywhere by police, never had children, never had a complaint filed by any girlfriends, never had any disciplinary issues in the military, etc. And there could still be a warrant outstanding from some other state, based on a complaint about a harassing interstate phone call or an eBay deal gone bad or just some identity theft.

    All you can do is your "due diligence". We do that here, takes about an hour. You have to examine and clear every possible prohibitor, so that you have some evidence of the "knowing" part of the charge. Far too many decent citizens are being persecuted and prosecuted, based solely on the written record of an incident, and the questionable assumption that your average citizen understands all aspects of the legal system. The majority of prohibited persons served no time in jail, but "could have been sentenced" to 5 years; or else they were taken in for a medical evaluation, found to be mentally sound, and released, but the paperwork was filed for a 302 commitment, so they were "committed to a mental hospital".
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Thanks to all who attended my Firearms Law Workshops this year!

  5. #65
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    May 2016
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    Johnstown, Pennsylvania
    (Cambria County)
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    Default Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS

    The 302 commitment blackhole is real I can assure you of that. If you get caught in the loop your rights to own, use or purchase firearms in this Commonwealth are gone. I literally lost my 2nd Amendment rights for nothing more then a trip to the ER back in 1998.
    Here is my nightmare there seems no end to. Back in December of 1998 I was working for a company I was 28 years old, I got a substantial and unexpected bonus from work and thought to myself I'm going out to celebrate its gonna be a great Christmas. So I went out dancing and drinking. To be honest i'm 6'5" and weigh 377lbs so I used to be able to put away the booze. I come home and I lived with my sister at the time and make it to the kitchen table where I sit down and pass out. I had been sleeping there for a few hours and my sister came down and saw me coat and everything still on and tried to awaken me. She was having a hard time waking me up so she panicked and called the Ambulance. The next thing I know im in the ER at my local hospital, they make me drink that god awful black charcoal stuff and do all sorts of blood work and an ekg on me. I have an ailment with my heart called a right bundle branch block which I was unaware of at the time. Layman's terms the electrical impulses which fire my upper and lower chambers have some bad wiring. SO on an ekg my heart looks like its not working correctly. This was confirmed just a few months ago, I had to have a stress test and a full cardiac workup, which I was told I needed a few times I have been to the hospital for other things. So back to the ER I was sent from there to the cardiac wing of my local hospital where I spent 3 days under observation. On the 4th day a woman came into my room and said I needed to go upstairs and speak to someone. I thought I was going home. I had no idea where I was going I was given no paperwork or anything. Where they took me was the 7th floor of my hospital...the psychiatric ward. The moment I got there I demanded to speak to a doctor it was around 7 or 8 pm in the evening on December 8th 1998. I was told no doctor was able to see me till 8am the next morning, I was not happy but said fine. He came into my room at around 8 am on the 9th of December literally talked to me for 5 mins and said he had no idea why I was brought there and discharged me on the spot.

    So in 2000/2001 I went to a local sporting goods shop in my area which i had used many times and went to purchase another firearm. I had my permit to carry concealed and my .357 mag on my hip. I get all the paperwork done give him the money and he picks up the phone to do my backround check and i'm denied. I said huh? What do you mean...he said yuo cannot purchase this gun. I said wait a minute I have a license to carry and own multiple firearms one of which I showed him I had on me. He said i could not purchase. I said ok and left. Not knowing what was about to happen to me. I go home scratching my head wondering what is going on. Some time passes and I get a call from a State Policeman who says I need to come to his office and be booked and fingerprinted. I said huh? for what...he says to come and see him and he would tell me why. So I go to his office get arrested,fingerprinted and photographed. He tells me that I am being charged with a Felony 3rd degree and a grade 2 mis. for Falsification to athority figures and and providing false information. I asked him strait out...what are you talking about. He tells me back in 1998 I had been 302 commited...I said no I was never commited. So he takes me to the magistrate where I plead not guilty to all charges and waive the case to court. I go to court 3 times and was offered ARD, I told them I refuse to take that I had done nothing wrong and state I am not guilty of anything. The 4th time I go to court the Judge and the DA come in a side room in the court house and ask me why I keep refusing ARD. I explain to them exactly what happened to me in 1998 and in about 10 mins the Judge throws out the case. Nolle Prossed both counts. So I go home.

    Almost 20 years has passed since this happened and guess what? A few months back I inquired about purchasing firearms I call the PCIS people directly and ask if I can purchase and they say nope. Now i'm 46 years old I have no criminal record, I have no mental heath record. I have scoured my records. The Hospital I went to in 1998 has no record of any 302, Cambria County Mental Health where this record should be has no record of a 302. I called ATF no records,FBI no records. I was never given a denial reason from the FFL. While in the hospital I never received an MH-783B or my MH-782 which would have told me a 302 was happening. They told me I had to go upstairs to talk to someone, so I did. I spent 12 hours on a floor in a general hospital and because of that my rights to own,carry or use firearms in the Commonwealth are just gone. The cost to have this removed from my record is very prohibitive. I am now disabled had 3 surgeries on my spine and 3 on my right shoulder. I receive a little over 700 a month from Social Security Disability. I have contacted a few lawyers and the cost would be on the upwards of $4000 dollars. I spoke to the PCIS people again today and they said clearly somewhere someone made a mistake in my record, however there is nothing he can do to help me.

    So in closing remember to always know what is happening to you, ask questions, stay informed. I hope to god this never happens to anyone else. If you get caught up in the system you will not like it at all.

    Charles T. Fisher Sr.

  6. #66
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    Sep 2015
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    zelienople, Pennsylvania
    (Beaver County)
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    Default Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS

    Once more I have to say, too many laws for a "free" country.

  7. #67
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    Oct 2008
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    Murrysville, Pennsylvania
    (Westmoreland County)
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    Default Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS

    Quote Originally Posted by john9001 View Post
    Once more I have to say, too many laws for a "free" country.
    We are far from free, and it is getting worse by the day. A couple of decades ago we started the slippery slope of forgetting that our basis of government is limited government.

    People need to read an understand the 9th & 10th Amendments!

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS

    Quote Originally Posted by Disruption70 View Post
    T I receive a little over 700 a month from Social Security Disability. I have contacted a few lawyers and the cost would be on the upwards of $4000 dollars. I spoke to the PCIS people again today and they said clearly somewhere someone made a mistake in my record, however there is nothing he can do to help me.

    So in closing remember to always know what is happening to you, ask questions, stay informed. I hope to god this never happens to anyone else. If you get caught up in the system you will not like it at all.

    Charles T. Fisher Sr.

    This is sad and a telling anecdote of what is happening in America. It is getting worse. More and more physicians and Obama beholden health insurance companies are demanding that patients fill out forms designed to drive shoddy diagnoses of "depression", "alcohol dependence" or other factors that will be used to disqualify people, especially seniors, from acquiring or owning firearms. The SSA and the AMA are in on the gun grab too.

    This case, and the above-quoted portion, demonstrates that the average citizen is essentially powerless to fight the system unless independently wealthy. I think of Senator Toomey's proposed "no fly, no buy" bill and its false and inadequate "due process protections". Those protections are a sham -- no person of ordinary means has the resources to use them and the government has virtually unlimited resources coupled with a demonstrated capacity to lie, conceal, destroy evidence, and obstruct justice with impunity. They do it all the time. Just look at the IRS, the DOJ and the FBI. Shame on Senator Toomey for being so willfully naive and malevolently opposed to the Second Amendment rights of US citizens. If McGinty were not so incredibly worse, Toomey would not have a chance of getting my vote -- just for being so dishonest about his proposed legislation and the effect of it on the civil rights of US citizens.

  9. #69
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    Sep 2015
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    zelienople, Pennsylvania
    (Beaver County)
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    Default Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS

    Just to clarify, if a person checked the box that said they did commit a prohibited crime would they just be turned down but not arrested?

    Anyway it is just back door gun control, it has a chilling effect on gun sales. It's hell trying to fill out the form knowing if you make a mistake you could go to jail.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Critically important note about PICS and NICS

    Quote Originally Posted by john9001 View Post
    Just to clarify, if a person checked the box that said they did commit a prohibited crime would they just be turned down but not arrested?

    Anyway it is just back door gun control, it has a chilling effect on gun sales. It's hell trying to fill out the form knowing if you make a mistake you could go to jail.
    If you make only truthful statements on the form, you shouldn't be prosecuted for making false statements on the form. FFL's are instructed not to proceed if you appear to be disqualified.

    I agree that it's wrong to criminally prosecute people for failing to understand complex legal questions, particularly regarding teenaged 302 commitments, and DUI convictions where it can take an experienced attorney 5 minutes to work through what the max penalty would be for your offense. For non-lawyers, it could be impossible to navigate the 3 statutes in 2 titles to figure it out.

    This is particularly true when it's a form interposed between you and the purchase of a product that's the subject of an explicit enumerated right. I've not heard of large numbers of prosecutions of people who lied on their immigration forms, lied on Welfare forms, lied to the government about the identity and whereabouts of their baby's daddy; those are lies knowingly told in order to steal tax dollars that were earned by other people.

    Me, I think that identity thieves and Internet scammers should be a primary focus of these discretionary prosecutions. Those bastards cause severe harm to known citizens. When you get confused about the max penalty for your 2nd DUI conviction (deemed to be your 3rd "offense", based on your BAC, there's usually no identifiable victim, no harm done when you filled out the 4473 at an FFL. Making mistakes on the 4473 is a victimless crime. Our govt should concentrate on preventing actual victims, not on herding the sheep along arbitrary pathways.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Thanks to all who attended my Firearms Law Workshops this year!

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