SLCFSA Rule Changes

[HKusp 45]

I just looked over this thread and have a few thoughts.

@egon12 You make an important point that every member of SLCFSA needs to understand. Since there are plenty of people ready to be become members there is no need to consider anyone's view. Everything else is camouflage. This is basic supply/demand.

1. I was there on the day blackseven is talking about and everything happened as described.

2. I have since obtained a copy of the newsletter and it does have all the pertinent information. Having said that, it doesn't makes this ridiculous policy any less ridiculous.

Lets review the reasoning for a moment.

a. Safety. This club allows people to join without verifying the knowledge, ability or understanding of safety. It further doesn't require a training class to be taken prior to joining. Regulations don't make you safe, training does. So lets not pretend that safety theater we have going on makes us any more safe.

b. Rash of idiots. Club leadership controls the criteria for entry for both members and guests. Undesirable elements were allowed in. Who is the idiot ? Its likes the cops coming to investigate a robbery and arresting the victim.

c. Neighbor issues. I completely agree that "telling someone they built their home behind a range unfortunately does not absolve the club from any liability". After they built it its too late. But what about before? Who is minding the store while this is going on? Who is in charge?

As far as the rates go, I am OK with raising the rates. If the money continues to go toward improvements and the issues above are addressed I don't see why not.

In regards to the policy being ridiculous the no rapid fire rule was in place when everyone joined. They provided a specific amount of time in order to make it less vague thats all.

When joining everyone is required to attend the safety meeting where all the general rules of firearm safety are gone over as well as the club rules. At that point because we have no rso's which coincidentally helps keep the costs down it becomes the responsibility of every member to know and if need be educate themselves. We are required police ourselves in order to keep what we have.

Now if in response to this you would like me to pass a motion that everyone needs to qualify with the firearms they plan on using at the next meeting I can. That would eliminate the arrest the victim theory. In most casesthe issue is not that of inability but choice not to follow the rules of safety which makes them idiots. (See above rules and safety are discussed upon joining)

AS for who is minding the store and before OK so we have a large Amish community that live adjacent to us. Unfortunately for us they sometimes wander through our ranges. Obviously everyone tries to keep everyone safe even if they are not supposed to be there and once again regardless of the rules if someone is accidentally shot it does not absolve us of any liability. Now we can really raise dues and charge like literally every other club hire RSO's get a good security system in place with cameras hire security to make sure nobody is trespassing, then make ita requirement that every member does x number of work nights and attends a minimum number of meetings and charge a $100.00 initiation fee then another $275.00 a year like so many other clubs or we can try to be understanding of the fact that because we are involved with firearms we need to be diligent. This sometimes means rules that seem little hard for some but it keeps us shooting and gives us place to do it that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

As for improvements of course the money is for improvements and expansion and legal fees and things that break. I'm guessing your not a frequent meeting visitor if you don't know that.
All finances are disclosed every meeting as well as lists of proposed improvements what is needed for those improvements timeline for them and potential costs. Again as members at any time a motion can be put forth to vote on if a member wishes to see something changed.

Now as Egon mentioned you have several options choose to accept that no matter what ones personnel feelings are firearms are a target as are the people who use them and accept this really is being done to make sure we aren't another mount joy or worse and follow the rules.

Get involved be at the meetings use your voice in a place where it makes sense in other words generally speaking majority rules. Members can put motions forth and have them voted on at the meetings, doing it here on the internet doesn't change anything.

Vote with your feet find a club better to your liking that provides everything SLCFSA provides with rules you can live with. I've checked chances of that are slim at best for the price even with the increase.

At the end of the day everyone only gets out what they put in so unless a member is involved and shows up for the meetings, discussions and the voting process and is active in such I don't see how anyone can complain. Everyone has the opportunity to be heard and make a change, majority just had to agree.

[egon12]

I just looked over this thread and have a few thoughts.

@egon12 You make an important point that every member of SLCFSA needs to understand. Since there are plenty of people ready to be become members there is no need to consider anyone's view. Everything else is camouflage. This is basic supply/demand.

1. I was there on the day blackseven is talking about and everything happened as described.

2. I have since obtained a copy of the newsletter and it does have all the pertinent information. Having said that, it doesn't makes this ridiculous policy any less ridiculous.

Lets review the reasoning for a moment.

a. Safety. This club allows people to join without verifying the knowledge, ability or understanding of safety. It further doesn't require a training class to be taken prior to joining. Regulations don't make you safe, training does. So lets not pretend that safety theater we have going on makes us any more safe.

b. Rash of idiots. Club leadership controls the criteria for entry for both members and guests. Undesirable elements were allowed in. Who is the idiot ? Its likes the cops coming to investigate a robbery and arresting the victim.

c. Neighbor issues. I completely agree that "telling someone they built their home behind a range unfortunately does not absolve the club from any liability". After they built it its too late. But what about before? Who is minding the store while this is going on? Who is in charge?

As far as the rates go, I am OK with raising the rates. If the money continues to go toward improvements and the issues above are addressed I don't see why not.

Let me take the opportunity to address some of the issues that you mentioned. AS to the property behind the 300yd range where the new amish farm was built. The board of directors was aware that the property was for sale. The board wanted to purchase the property to create a buffer zone, unfortunately the bid they placed to buy the property was beat out by the gentleman who eventually bought the property and built his home and barn. Now we are in the unenviable position to mitigate the possibility of a stray bullet hitting his building. This means spending a few thousand dollars to bring in heavy equipment to excavate the 300 yd range a further 20-30 feet and build up berms to keep the bullets on our property. Unfortunately in life you are dealt a situation that is not ideal, so you got to work with what you got to keep everyone happy.

As to your rash of idiots comment. Again in an ideal world we would have a crystal ball and we would be able to automatically decide if a new member is a responsible person or not and weed out the undesirable. That is why any new member is required to attend an orientation to go over what is expected of them while on club property. The orientation of new members has been in effect for a very long time. Therefore if you are a member the rapid fire rule, though poorly written, was discussed prior to becoming a member in good standing.

As to your issue of the safety regulations. You are correct that the regulations will not make a person become a safe shooter instantly. Again, in an ideal world everyone who handles firearms should have some training, but in "realsville" that is not the case. That is why if I am on the range and see someone breaking the rules I see it as an opportunity to educate the person on proper range behavior.

The safety regs or SOP (standard operating procedure) for the club was rewritten to make it in the plainest language possible so everyone who is a member and their guests know what is expected of them while on the property. It was updated to satisfy the lawyers and insurance company in the situation if an accident would occur. Will the SOP protect the club from lawsuits, no, but it is proof to the lawyers and insurance company that set standards of behavior were in place and the person responsible for the accident is to blame, not necessarily the club as a whole.

I realize that you have an issue with our rapid fire rule, and I would invite you come up with a suggestion that would make the lawyers, insurance company, and the safety committee happy. If you have a better idea that holds water and will work I am all ears.

I would also like to address one of the underlying themes of this posting. It was summed up quite nicely with the post made by the gentleman who said I paid my dues and I will do what I want. This entitlement mentality that is spreading like a cancer in society today. The notion that "if it feels good, do it and to hell with everyone else" is the problem. In a utopia we all could do what we want when we want and there would be no consequences. In reality we have rules, regulations, and societal norms that we need to adhere to. For example you and your buddies could go clubbing on saturday night. You pay your cover-charge enter the club that you proceed to become a belligerent drunk grope the waitress and start a fight. Guess what even though you paid your money you are going to get your butt thrown out joint because of your behavior. Same thing with any private club. You pay your dues, follow the rules and you will never have a problem. If you thing the rules are dumb, come up with a better solution and get involved.

The bottom line is this the OP was caught breaking the rules/SOP, he was called on it, and now he is bent out of shape. He can either follow the rules/SOP, get involved and get them changed, or find a place that is more to his liking.

There are things in my life that I don't like or don't think it is fair, but I need to deal with the cards I am dealt with. If I can change it great. But more often than not I just got to make do with the situation. People need to break out of their entitlement mentality and realize they do not live in a vacuum and their actions effect everyone around them.

[HKusp 45]

Let me take the opportunity to address some of the issues that you mentioned. AS to the property behind the 300yd range where the new amish farm was built. The board of directors was aware that the property was for sale. The board wanted to purchase the property to create a buffer zone, unfortunately the bid they placed to buy the property was beat out by the gentleman who eventually bought the property and built his home and barn. Now we are in the unenviable position to mitigate the possibility of a stray bullet hitting his building. This means spending a few thousand dollars to bring in heavy equipment to excavate the 300 yd range a further 20-30 feet and build up berms to keep the bullets on our property. Unfortunately in life you are dealt a situation that is not ideal, so you got to work with what you got to keep everyone happy.

As to your rash of idiots comment. Again in an ideal world we would have a crystal ball and we would be able to automatically decide if a new member is a responsible person or not and weed out the undesirable. That is why any new member is required to attend an orientation to go over what is expected of them while on club property. The orientation of new members has been in effect for a very long time. Therefore if you are a member the rapid fire rule, though poorly written, was discussed prior to becoming a member in good standing.

As to your issue of the safety regulations. You are correct that the regulations will not make a person become a safe shooter instantly. Again, in an ideal world everyone who handles firearms should have some training, but in "realsville" that is not the case. That is why if I am on the range and see someone breaking the rules I see it as an opportunity to educate the person on proper range behavior.

The safety regs or SOP (standard operating procedure) for the club was rewritten to make it in the plainest language possible so everyone who is a member and their guests know what is expected of them while on the property. It was updated to satisfy the lawyers and insurance company in the situation if an accident would occur. Will the SOP protect the club from lawsuits, no, but it is proof to the lawyers and insurance company that set standards of behavior were in place and the person responsible for the accident is to blame, not necessarily the club as a whole.

I realize that you have an issue with our rapid fire rule, and I would invite you come up with a suggestion that would make the lawyers, insurance company, and the safety committee happy. If you have a better idea that holds water and will work I am all ears.

I would also like to address one of the underlying themes of this posting. It was summed up quite nicely with the post made by the gentleman who said I paid my dues and I will do what I want. This entitlement mentality that is spreading like a cancer in society today. The notion that "if it feels good, do it and to hell with everyone else" is the problem. In a utopia we all could do what we want when we want and there would be no consequences. In reality we have rules, regulations, and societal norms that we need to adhere to. For example you and your buddies could go clubbing on saturday night. You pay your cover-charge enter the club that you proceed to become a belligerent drunk grope the waitress and start a fight. Guess what even though you paid your money you are going to get your butt thrown out joint because of your behavior. Same thing with any private club. You pay your dues, follow the rules and you will never have a problem. If you thing the rules are dumb, come up with a better solution and get involved.

The bottom line is this the OP was caught breaking the rules/SOP, he was called on it, and now he is bent out of shape. He can either follow the rules/SOP, get involved and get them changed, or find a place that is more to his liking.

There are things in my life that I don't like or don't think it is fair, but I need to deal with the cards I am dealt with. If I can change it great. But more often than not I just got to make do with the situation. People need to break out of their entitlement mentality and realize they do not live in a vacuum and their actions effect everyone around them.

I think the best part of this whole thread is that the two people who were there that posted are new to pafoa or barely participate..... Much the same as they are in the club. By the way boys today was range maintanence day pretty sure neither of you showed up to help I would know I did. which begs the question to me is the op the same person who was caught rapid firing and the one who was caught using someone else's card and not a member at all? There was a recent incident in July in which someone was caught with his buddies using a card that was not his and this was only discovered because they went rapid fire on one of the ranges. In fact the card owner is now in a different state.

[blackseven]

I think the best part of this whole thread is that the two people who were there that posted are new to pafoa or barely participate..... Much the same as they are in the club. By the way boys today was range maintanence day pretty sure neither of you showed up to help I would know I did. which begs the question to me is the op the same person who was caught rapid firing and the one who was caught using someone else's card and not a member at all? There was a recent incident in July in which someone was caught with his buddies using a card that was not his and this was only discovered because they went rapid fire on one of the ranges. In fact the card owner is now in a different state.

I am a dues paying member #1154, feel free to look me up. I've never had any other issues at the club.

I pay dues to a club because I don't have time to build and maintain a range. I would gladly pay double for the service if it made a difference. Money I have, time I don't. Call it selfish if you want, but I have my priorities in order. Up until this post I have NEVER had a problem at SLCFSA in the years that I have been a member. I can say beyond any doubt that I have always felt safer at SLCFSA than ANY public range.

I'm lucky if I make it to a range once a month at all. I'm extra lucky if I can make it out to the range with my sons. I have much more going on in life than firearms. I have four boys 3 through 14, I'm also taking 10 credits this semester which rules out Monday evenings since I'm sitting in class.

Now on to the original point of this thread, I had a shitty experience along with several other people, and my goal was to warn others before they had a shitty experience too. I support policing the ranges for troublemakers, what I don't care for is being harassed while not breaking any rules.

I believe you used the word "petulant child", that's what I witnessed between Dave and other dues paying members that were not breaking any posted rules. Threatening to have their range cards pulled for a rule that NO ONE out of the eight shooters on the line had ever heard of and clearly was not posted on the range. NO ONE was rapid firing on that range that day. All shots were spaced reasonably.

Out of a random sampling of 8 dues paying member 0 had been informed of rules made up just a few weeks prior. How are you going to come out to the range with a shitty attitude to enforce a rule no one had even known about at that point?

I have always gotten my news letter, but I didn't get a June-July letter, and no news letters from the winter or spring had any mention of a three second rule. Had I known, I'd have made the time to get my ass there in person to let my vote be recorded.

I know you'd like to chalk this up to a couple of "non-supporting troublemakers" that just want to stir up some drama for everyone to talk about, but that attitude along with the attitude towards shooters in general at the range that day is bullshit.

If this topic ever gets another vote I'll be there in person to put my 2 cents in, that's for damn sure.

[HKusp 45]

I am a dues paying member #1154, feel free to look me up. I've never had aify other issues at the club.

I pay dues to a club because I don't have time to build and maintain a range. I would gladly pay double for the service if it made a difference. Money I have, time I don't. Call it selfish if you want, but I have my priorities in order. Up until this post I have NEVER had a problem at SLCFSA in the years that I have been a member. I can say beyond any doubt that I have always felt safer at SLCFSA than ANY public range.

I'm lucky if I make it to a range once a month at all. I'm extra lucky if I can make it out to the range with my sons. I have much more going on in life than firearms. I have four boys 3 through 14, I'm also taking 10 credits this semester which rules out Monday evenings since I'm sitting in class.

Now on to the original point of this thread, I had a shitty experience along with several other people, and my goal was to warn others before they had a shitty experience too. I support policing the ranges for troublemakers, what I don't care for is being harassed while not breaking any rules.

I believe you used the word "petulant child", that's what I witnessed between Dave and other dues paying members that were not breaking any posted rules. Threatening to have their range cards pulled for a rule that NO ONE out of the eight shooters on the line had ever heard of and clearly was not posted on the range. NO ONE was rapid firing on that range that day. All shots were spaced reasonably.

Out of a random sampling of 8 dues paying member 0 had been informed of rules made up just a few weeks prior. How are you going to come out to the range with a shitty attitude to enforce a rule no one had even known about at that point?

I have always gotten my news letter, but I didn't get a June-July letter, and no news letters from the winter or spring had any mention of a three second rule. Had I known, I'd have made the time to get my ass there in person to let my vote be recorded.

I know you'd like to chalk this up to a couple of "non-supporting troublemakers" that just want to stir up some drama for everyone to talk about, but that attitude along with the attitude towards shooters in general at the range that day is bullshit.

If this topic ever gets another vote I'll be there in person to put my 2 cents in, that's for damn sure.

If you take a second look at the newsletters prior to July and august the 3 second rule was mentioned. As for voting all that is necc is to show up at a meeting. Once again being on the internet as opposed to being at a meeting resolves nothing. But be aware that when choosing to post on a public forum you are open to feedback. When you join a forum with the intent of providing a negative experience when so many others have had the opposite experience expect some difference of opinion.

If you don't have the time to be there however then you are subject to democracy majority rules. So if it is important enough to get on the internet and post a long descriptive explanation then maybe make the same time to swing by the club and put in the same effort once in a while at a meeting. At minimum why not talk to Dave one on one and have the conversation instead. As for your college credits well good for you I'm glad you are making time for school and to better yourself not being sarcastic FYI. Congrats on your kids as well what I was getting at was that I am sure that if it's that near and dear to your heart you will find a way to swing by and talk to Dave. He's generally present at the range and on weekends making sure everything is running smoothly which is more than I can say for the previous president.

I for one am present regularly and maybe that is why I have a better understanding of why things are the way they are and why the scrutiny on what seems silly to others.

[range saftey officer]

I can understand not going crazy with rapid fire for safety reasons. But because neighbors are complaining? They live near a gun range. What does it matter how it sounds? It's gun fire!

I hate these ranges that make these stupid rules. I'll be shooting like I want. I pay money. End of story.

I have been a member of this range a looooong time. the rules come about because of stupid things done by uncaring people unsafe acts and disrespect of others. Yes you do pay dues as do I. The rules are for everyone no exceptions. you don't like the rules the leave. If you are caught breaking the rules you will be terminated form OUR club. END OF STORY. by the way we have range safety officers out and now we patrol as well. HAVE A GREAT DAY SEE YA AROUND AND SHOOT SAFE.

[blackseven]

I have been a member of this range a looooong time. the rules come about because of stupid things done by uncaring people unsafe acts and disrespect of others. Yes you do pay dues as do I. The rules are for everyone no exceptions. you don't like the rules the leave. If you are caught breaking the rules you will be terminated form OUR club. END OF STORY. by the way we have range safety officers out and now we patrol as well. HAVE A GREAT DAY SEE YA AROUND AND SHOOT SAFE.

Implying that everyone pulling the trigger faster that one round every three seconds is unsafely discharging a firearm sounds like something a gun-control wacko like Bloomberg would say. I did not renew my membership due to the direction the club has taken. I'm looking into some other ranges in the area that cater more to the modern sporting firearm competition crowd like New Holland rather than a Penn-dutch type club. It's sad to see the division among a group of enthusiasts that are all (should be) NRA members.

I really enjoyed my time at SLCFSA, and had some more thought been put into the safety and enforcement of people just looking to do a Mag dump, I'd still be going there. Good luck with the club. Very nice grounds and the majority of folks I ran into were very friendly and positive towards all shooting sports.

[libertyof76]

No the issue arose when we had a rash of idiots come out and go from every couple seconds to every second to bangbangbangbang bang well you get the idea. Essentially they unloaded as fast as they could.

What's wrong with that? If they are doing it unsafely, and shooting randomly, that's different. But there is nothing inherently unsafe about unloading as fast as the trigger is pulled

Reason two the neighbor just put a house behind our 300 yd range (hence the neighbor issues) it does become a potential problem. Telling someone they built their home behind a range unfortunately does not absolve the club from any liability if a stray bullet or bullets punch holes in his house.

And they chose to put a house knowing a gun range was there.

As for those who didn't get the newsletter it has been discussed at every meeting for the past 6 months. We have new signs and bulletin boards going up to specify what has been discussed. If nobody received any newsletter all year then at one point or another you may have wanted to call or maybe go to a meeting and make sure they have your info right.

I read every newsletter and I never saw it. It was never on the website. Nothing was said until AFTER it was pushed through.

And I'm sorry I can't make the meetings. I have a make a wish child I care for which makes it difficult in the evenings after a day a work to attend meetings.

However the other problem was we had a group of people none of whom were members that got caught with someone else's card and the idiots went rapid fire then argued about it...... But they weren't members so again we work on trust in our club and we have to be extremely diligent if we want to keep it around.

The problem there isn't the rapid fire rule. The problem is the people who are members using ranges.

I would say if there's an issue come to a meeting and express your point of view as with any member your well within your rights to do so. But its not like you don't have a voice in this you just need to use it where it can be useful.

Well just having voice isn't enough. We need a full vote on this by the membership.

[libertyof76]

If you take a second look at the newsletters prior to July and august the 3 second rule was mentioned.

It was mentioned as being the rule. No mention that we should come and vote on it.

As for voting all that is necc is to show up at a meeting.

I think people would have shown up had they known this was being voted on.

If you don't have the time to be there however then you are subject to democracy majority rules.

Except its not majority. Its a small minority that shows up. I believe every major rule change should have to be voted on by the ENTIRE membership, not just a select few who can make it to that meeting.

[libertyof76]

I have been a member of this range a looooong time. the rules come about because of stupid things done by uncaring people unsafe acts and disrespect of others.

So then you support banning guns- because "of stupid things done by uncaring people unsafe acts and disrespect of others" right?

Yes you do pay dues as do I. The rules are for everyone no exceptions. you don't like the rules the leave.

That's not how it works. A small minority made the rules. I didn't agree to them. I'm not leaving. YOU need to leave if you don't like SANE rules.

If you are caught breaking the rules you will be terminated form OUR club. END OF STORY.

Its OUR club- not yours. A small minority passed the rules, and now you seem to be happy to enforce that. What will you do when they get repealed?

by the way we have range safety officers out and now we patrol as well. HAVE A GREAT DAY SEE YA AROUND AND SHOOT SAFE.

So you have people enforcing rules supported by Bloomberg? How do they feel about that?