Friend pulled a gun yesterday

[Frenchy]

[QUOTE=Frenchy;2797140]This is where you are wrong, if the dock is in the water then it becomes public property, the same can not be said about a boat tied to that dock, but the actual dock is public the instant it touches water or public land.

Taken from this PA site.




~Snip~

What if they were sitting on your boat on a public lake? Do you see how THAT would be trespassing?

I'd like to see Pennsylvania statutes or case law that give a public easement to any privately-built dock.

The thing is, law schools actually use private docks as a classic example of trespassing, in the context of "necessity". The example usually given is, you're in your boat, and a storm comes up. The only place to tie up your boat and avoid sinking and drowning, is a private dock. In that case, your criminal liability for trespassing is excused, because of the greater need to protect your life.

So, not everything on the water is going to be defaulted for public use. I'd assume that a dock would either need a permit (thus giving the dock owner a right not held by the general public), or else their situation would give them a right to the land.

My experience with docks is pretty much limited to a PP&L artificial lake (and I'll keep using the ampersand, thank you). Docks were privately owned, although the land was leased. Riparian laws may affect the adjacent land and the shoreline and the water underneath the dock, but I doubt they change the title to vehicles or structures owned privately.

OK in comparison, a dock is like a sidewalk heading into the water, If it was parallel to the water, it would be a boardwalk.

If you make a dock or buy it and it is on your private property, not on the Average (low to high) water mark, it is private property, once in the water, it becomes part of its environment, A boat on the other hand, is like your car parked next to the sidewalk, It is definitely *See salvage laws in the case of boats that are not tied down or in peril. private property. Most states issue licenses for boats that must be painted onto the sides as a registration. This is where salvage law might come into play if the boat was not tied down and salvaged.

The riparian line is the average between low (not drought but normal low) water and High water (the kinds you might get during a severe storm or spring melt) most fishermen and property owners agree this to me 10 feet from usual water line.
At any rate sitting with out permission to board would definitely be trespassing unless as you say, there are extreme conditions. (Bear running after you and being on the wharf is not protection enough but sitting in the boat and setting it out some into the water to make a distance)

Agreed not everything in public waters is public, as I just said a boat is privately owned, so would a pontoon or any floating device. but a wharf or dock is attached to the land by anchors or stakes and becomes part of..

As you said, the whole thing is a moot point if it is a private man made lake as in the example of an artificial trout lake. Then the lake and anything on it is the property owners.

[jerkin]

"Navigable" appears to be a complex concept; I found this old case:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...en&as_sdt=4,39

It is but the basis for it is if a river/stream ever been used or could be used for commercial purposes. The stream in my yard and the thousands of small trout streams throughout Central Pennsylvania could never be considered "navigable". The concept becomes more complex when dealing with lakes but what I intended to point out is Frenchy's error in believing that there is an easement for any waterway in the Commonwealth. The stream that runs through my property is only several inches deep in several of the wider spots (maybe 10' wide) and could in no way be considered "navigable". You couldn't float much more than a small stick down it in those spots.

There is a newer Court case involving the Little Juniata and the Spring Ridge Club if you care to look at it, this is where I learned about navigable waterways. Basically the club shut down part of the creek but after a few years in Court it was decided that it was a navigable waterway and had been used for logging in the 18th century.

[Frenchy]

This isn't true. I have a small stream that runs through my property and I own both sides of it. There is no easement where people can walk down my property, they would be trespassing. What you are referring to only applies to navigable waterways, not every stream in Pennsylvania.

From the same site you are quoting:


You can not walk alongside my creek or in my creek, it is my property and you would be trespassing.

Other then very small brooks that actually dry up in summer time, can you certify that that creek/river was never used to travel on or conduct trade?

Like that page says ANY travel, as far back as history goes) is it remotely possible that trappers or native Americans used this waterway as a route?

If not, then it is not public, if it is possible, then it is probably public.
Chances are, if there is a larger waterway or lake above and or bellow it, it was once navigated and therefor public even if you don't see it as such.

EDIT TO add:
Don't forget trappers went up the St Laurence seaway, broke down their small sailing ships, transported it up past the falls in Niagara, then traveled the great lakes, None of the rivers and waterways would fit the sailing ships they had, so Portage, pulling by horse and again breaking down and rebuilding after traveling past these sometimes small brooks that could barely fit a canoe would still be seen as "Navigating" as long as they followed that extremely small waterway.

Also, many trappers did in fact portage from one lake to the next because the waterways available where not wide enough or too rough to "Navigate" but the brooks and streams in question are still considered to have been navigated

[GunLawyer001]

[QUOTE=Frenchy;2797169]

This is where you are wrong, if the dock is in the water then it becomes public property, the same can not be said about a boat tied to that dock, but the actual dock is public the instant it touches water or public land.

Taken from this PA site.




~Snip~




OK in comparison, a dock is like a sidewalk heading into the water, If it was parallel to the water, it would be a boardwalk.

If you make a dock or buy it and it is on your private property, not on the Average (low to high) water mark, it is private property, once in the water, it becomes part of its environment, A boat on the other hand, is like your car parked next to the sidewalk, It is definitely *See salvage laws in the case of boats that are not tied down or in peril. private property. Most states issue licenses for boats that must be painted onto the sides as a registration. This is where salvage law might come into play if the boat was not tied down and salvaged.

The riparian line is the average between low (not drought but normal low) water and High water (the kinds you might get during a severe storm or spring melt) most fishermen and property owners agree this to me 10 feet from usual water line.
At any rate sitting with out permission to board would definitely be trespassing unless as you say, there are extreme conditions. (Bear running after you and being on the wharf is not protection enough but sitting in the boat and setting it out some into the water to make a distance)

Agreed not everything in public waters is public, as I just said a boat is privately owned, so would a pontoon or any floating device. but a wharf or dock is attached to the land by anchors or stakes and becomes part of..

As you said, the whole thing is a moot point if it is a private man made lake as in the example of an artificial trout lake. Then the lake and anything on it is the property owners.

I certainly understand your logic, but is it "the law" in Pennsylvania? What says that if you put a dock in that public zone between low tide and high tide, that you lose title to that dock? Can you be sued as the "owner" if it collapses and injures someone, or has it been dedicated to public use? Are you obliged to maintain it? Can someone throw a party on it? Can you be excluded from your own dock, if other people got there first and are using it?

[Frenchy]

[QUOTE=GunLawyer001;2797179]

I certainly understand your logic, but is it "the law" in Pennsylvania? What says that if you put a dock in that public zone between low tide and high tide, that you lose title to that dock? Can you be sued as the "owner" if it collapses and injures someone, or has it been dedicated to public use? Are you obliged to maintain it? Can someone throw a party on it? Can you be excluded from your own dock, if other people got there first and are using it?

My understanding of it as a fisherman is, In french we call it "Gros bon sens" The bigger sense of it, the dok "Belongs" to the land owner, this is seen in many instances where a dock will actually get freed from its moors and damage others boats and property. But the Usage is not exclusively the owners.. If that makes any sense. I would never board a dock or wharf unless it was posted public without the owners consent, but as a general rule, if you are canoeing on a river or lake and moor to the dock if there is space and use it, it is acceptable, again, courtesy prevails.

As a fisherman, I would not say a dock is "Public" as in everyone and their cousin can park their boat there and party, but landing and mooring to the dock is legal and in most instances not frowned upon on lakes and rivers where sports fishing is allowed.

In many "marina" type area, there is a per hour charge for the maintenance and keeping of the docks. A sort of rental, so yes, the ownership is very visible, but as you said before one could stop there and moor as long as it keeps them safe and free of harm without payment for an acceptable duration of time.

I will state tho, although these are all "Legalities" that shore front owners get to know, by sheer courtesy, I always ask if I can stop / moor / fish near a dock. Fishermen are bound to respect swimmers and other boaters in the area. The fact that the law allows me to wade in the waters, does not remove my responsibility of keeping my hooks safe from any sails on boats or any eyes of the residents in the area.

I think it is a mutual respect thing, the shore owners know there will be fishing, as long as the fishermen are quiet, clean and respect the peoples privacy as much as possible... Chances are if they are residents or owners near a lake or river/stream, they also are sportsmen and anglers, few rent or buy these property just to do ski and see-doo on the weekends

[wakefield724]

Little does everyone know. The mouthy Latino fish was ICEN fishing with his teenage brother and friend.

[jthrelf]

Little does everyone know. The mouthy Latino fish was ICEN fishing with his teenage brother and friend.

I got a laugh out of that one actually. More so because it's troll vs. troll .

I think your friend did fine. I would have called PSP in that 30 minutes of them in the car. I understand it could have been awhile for them to arrive but if something were to go down, you look more like a victim because you were the good guy who called the cops in the first place. IMO the draw was justified though.

[streaker69]

Didn't read all the posts, but I know one thing. When I'm going to apologize to someone, I always do it at a sprint.

[Frenchy]

Didn't read all the posts, but I know one thing. When I'm going to apologize to someone, I always do it at a sprint.

I find that most of these type of "Approve me" type posts have things left out and other things embellished.

For example, this "older" gentleman said to the younger member here.. probably already removing parts of the story, like how his wife ran off with the Puerto Rican pool boy from the country club where she scours the floors...

Then the younger member here figuring the older man needs an excuse for pulling his gun adds that the Puerto Rican was racing or sprinting towards him...

Sometimes you just need to look at the real facts, the fishermen went from a public dock following the shoreline fishing.. The old man got excited and pulled his gun to get them out of there.

Was it foolish, was it racist, was it worth telling... What really concerns me is did the people fishing have permits to fish in PA. Other than that, this is a story of an old man going crazy over nothing.

[Johannes_Paulsen]

Pretty much any government form asks you your gender, age, race, and size. The OP covered all four. Not sure how it becomes racist when the serfs use the same descriptors as our masters in government.

Because if the government is doing it, it must be right?