Friend pulled a gun yesterday

[God's Country]

I'm curious how they got to the lake with a vehicle in the first place.
Private communities with lakes and such are often gated....no?

Just wondering how you knew they had no business being there. Is there a vehicle sticker? Could they have been guests?

[BimmerJon]

Three guys.... Sexist!

[Frenchy]

I read your post describing the property issues in a private community. All I know is, if it is my dock, they are trespassing. I get the road may be a different issue...maybe. That doesn't preclude telling them not to trespass (not saying that is the best choice, but it is an option), getting their license plate, and/or calling the PSP to get it on record.

Bottom line for me, if I see you on my private property, I will make the judgement call.

Wear your Penguins jersey and I may cut you some slack

This is where you are wrong, if the dock is in the water then it becomes public property, the same can not be said about a boat tied to that dock, but the actual dock is public the instant it touches water or public land.

Taken from this PA site.

Who owns public waters?
The title to the beds of public waters is held in trust by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania for the benefit of the public. In case of rivers and streams, the Commonwealth’s ownership extends to ordinary low water mark, and the adjacent riparian landowner owns above the high water mark. An easement exists in favor of public between high and low water marks. That easement includes the right to fish. In case of lakes, Commonwealth’s ownership encompasses the mean pool of lake.

How much of a navigable waterway does the Commonwealth own?
When it comes to navigable waters, Pennsylvania courts have said that the Commonwealth’s ownership extends to the ordinary low water mark, and the adjacent riparian landowner owns above the ordinary high water mark. An easement exists in favor of public between the high and low water marks. That easement includes the right to fish.

The courts have defined the low water mark in this context as the height of water at ordinary stages of low water unaffected by drought and unchanged by artificial means. The best advice is to tell the public to stay as close to the water as possible or if they want to be safe to stay in the water. If they don’t venture on to upland properties, they’ll be OK. The fact that a waterway is deemed navigable does not give the public unfettered access to people's riparian lands nor permission to trespass in order to gain access to a waterway.

Do the rights of the public include being able to cross private property to gain access to the public waters?
No. The public does not have a right to cross on private property to gain access to public waters. However, if you enter a public waterway lawfully (e.g., through a public access point), you can wade, boat, float or otherwise be in the waterway where it passes through private property.

Can riparian landowners prevent members of the public from floating or wading in public waters that flow through their property?
No. However, a riparian landowner can prevent the public from crossing his or her land to get to the public water.

Can riparian landowners prevent members of the public from fishing in public waters that flow through their property?
No.

So there you have it, the fishermen where in the right to fish, the intruder is the person who asked them to leave who himself was probably trespassing and probably forced them to trespass.

It boils down to, had he minded his business and let the fishermen fish quietly, he would not have needed to pull his gun for his "Protection"

[Frenchy]

I'm curious how they got to the lake with a vehicle in the first place.
Private communities with lakes and such are often gated....no?

Just wondering how you knew they had no business being there. Is there a vehicle sticker? Could they have been guests?

You can not have a private lake unless it is man made. Gated communities around rivers and lakes MUST give public access to the waterways for recreational fishing.

[GunLawyer001]

Where is everyone getting that these people fishing where trespassers?

If they went from a public access wharf and followed the shoreline, they where not in fact trespassing but fishing on public waterways.

The person who asked them to leave IF he was not on his private property might have been the trespasser

What if they were sitting on your boat on a public lake? Do you see how THAT would be trespassing?

I'd like to see Pennsylvania statutes or case law that give a public easement to any privately-built dock.

The thing is, law schools actually use private docks as a classic example of trespassing, in the context of "necessity". The example usually given is, you're in your boat, and a storm comes up. The only place to tie up your boat and avoid sinking and drowning, is a private dock. In that case, your criminal liability for trespassing is excused, because of the greater need to protect your life.

So, not everything on the water is going to be defaulted for public use. I'd assume that a dock would either need a permit (thus giving the dock owner a right not held by the general public), or else their situation would give them a right to the land.

My experience with docks is pretty much limited to a PP&L artificial lake (and I'll keep using the ampersand, thank you). Docks were privately owned, although the land was leased. Riparian laws may affect the adjacent land and the shoreline and the water underneath the dock, but I doubt they change the title to vehicles or structures owned privately.

[Qtrborecrazy]

Possible. Although would we think the same if they were white kids? Being Hispanic doesn't make them NOT criminals, but it doesn't make them criminals either. If the OP's friend had shot one, it might be justified, but his life would be over as he knew it. He'd have his own Trayvon Martin case: "Homeowner shoots teen for fishing while Puerto Rican."

NOT seen any noticeable racism on this thread, so I'm NOT talking to anyone in particular, but it's good to remember that not being a racist asshole is another asset to have if you ever find yourself defending your actions in court. Zim had a history of NOT being racist, and although it didn't help him in the press--who "promoted" him from Hispanic to white to load the dice against him--it probably helped him in court.

Adam12, I don't care what color the thieves are, thieves are thieves. We had a farmer with a farm stand on Rt 690 in Madisonville, while he and his wife were working the stand, they robbed his house. Sad part the man just sold some equitment and had 20k in a safe that went bye bye. The thieves were WHITE, and got caught but the farmer was out the money. I think the thieves should spend a long time in jail, lets say a year for every k.

[jerkin]

This is all fine if you have no lakes or rivers or streams where fish dwell but when you do, those waterways can not be called private unless they are man made, meaning a large pool of water that was dug up on someones property where water is allowed to fill and create an artificial pond.

Lakes, streams, rivers are public areas generally governed by the federal govt, unless in the case of a state park the federal govt secedes its rights to the state, then it becomes state jurisdiction, in either case the rules are the same.

the water way and 10 feet of land from the average water level are public. So any lake, rivers or streams and the first 10 feet from average water level are pubic property, Paid for by federal taxes. You can not claim this as Private.

This isn't true. I have a small stream that runs through my property and I own both sides of it. There is no easement where people can walk down my property, they would be trespassing. What you are referring to only applies to navigable waterways, not every stream in Pennsylvania.

From the same site you are quoting:

Who owns private waters?
Title to the beds is held by the adjacent riparian landowner. If the adjacent riparian landowner owns property on only one side of a non-navigable waterway, he or she owns to the middle. When a non-navigable waterway flows through someone’s property, he or she owns the entire bed of the waterway.

You can not walk alongside my creek or in my creek, it is my property and you would be trespassing.

[GunLawyer001]

This isn't true. I have a small stream that runs through my property and I own both sides of it. There is no easement where people can walk down my property, they would be trespassing. What you are referring to only applies to navigable waterways, not every stream in Pennsylvania.

"Navigable" appears to be a complex concept; I found this old case:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...en&as_sdt=4,39

[mpan72]

Where is everyone getting that these people fishing where trespassers?

If they went from a public access wharf and followed the shoreline, they where not in fact trespassing but fishing on public waterways.

The person who asked them to leave IF he was not on his private property might have been the trespasser

The going into peoples backyards might be tresspassing. Once on the docks then they would no longer be tresspassing. (I'll take your word for it as I have not done the research on the whole dock on public water equalls public property.)

[Sparks]

Post 33
Quote:
Do the rights of the public include being able to cross private property to gain access to the public waters?
No. The public does not have a right to cross on private property to gain access to public waters. However, if you enter a public waterway lawfully (e.g., through a public access point), you can wade, boat, float or otherwise be in the waterway where it passes through private property.

Can riparian landowners prevent members of the public from floating or wading in public waters that flow through their property?
No. However, a riparian landowner can prevent the public from crossing his or her land to get to the public water.

Post 34 "You can not have a private lake unless it is man made. Gated communities around rivers and lakes MUST give public access to the waterways for recreational fishing."

Frenchy you can't have it both ways.

And from your quotes, easement is only to the high water mark, not 10 feet beyond.

Only the natural body of water is public.