Friend pulled a gun yesterday

[Grey Bearded One]

Possible. Although would we think the same if they were white kids?

Jesus loves the little children,
All the little children of the world.
Red and yellow, black and white,
They are tresspassers in his sight.

[JAKIII]

So we live in a private community in the middle of nowhere on a lake, and my friend told me yesterday that there was three shady puerto rican guys fishing down on the community dock.

I have NOT seen any noticeable racism on this thread, so I'm NOT talking to anyone in particular, but it's good to remember that not being a racist asshole is another asset to have if you ever find yourself defending your actions in court.

Adam-12: I reread your post a couple times to try and verify the sarcasm. You were being sarcastic, right...?

[Frenchy]

So we live in a private community in the middle of nowhere on a lake, and my friend told me yesterday that there was three shady puerto rican guys fishing down on the community dock. So he was watching them from his house then they started going into peoples backyards and using there docks for fishing. So my friend is wondering whats going on, and then he saw that one of them went onto his private dock and started fishing. So he went outside and told him "hey you cant be here this is private property" then the guy started getting mouthy with him and he eventually left and headed back to his car. So then the 3 guys got back in there car and just sat there for 30 mins. My friend watched him and because it was a private road, he went out there and told them "hey you guys gotta go" then the same guy started getting mouthy with him again. They kept talking and then the guy got out of his car and started running toward him all while shouting at my friend. At that time my buddy pulled his gun and the guy said he was just coming to "apologize" My friend then told him to get back in the car and they left.

Now keep in mind my friend is in his 60's and these guys were younger and pretty built. My buddy is also a official in the home owners association. Also the state police are at least 20 mins away and thats if there not busy. What do you guys think? Was he justified in pulling his firearm?

Oh the joys of private roads and country camps around them.


My sister was President of such an association with over 60 members, just a road with little rivers and further in the bush, 3 or 4 lakes..

The problem with this, is IF the road comes across YOUR private property, meaning say 4 neighbors want to be able to drive behind their cabins rather than enter from the front and decide to make a road that is decidedly ON their property, then it can truly be said to be a private road, where one of the 4 people and or any of their visitors are the only one allowed on it.

But in most scenarios, the original property owner divided his land into smaller properties that he the sells off and keeps a common path in the middle of it calling it a public right of way. As it is on his Original land, it becomes HIS private road, meaning he will pay a tax to the town or parish he belongs to then have say snow removed or graded in summer.. Or he can decide to do this on his own, or ask the home owners association to maintain the roads.

This road is now what would also be known as a private community road. Private in the sense that it is maintained privately, not in the sense that only the home owners there have access. To do that, you would need to place gates and call it a Gated community.

This is all fine if you have no lakes or rivers or streams where fish dwell but when you do, those waterways can not be called private unless they are man made, meaning a large pool of water that was dug up on someones property where water is allowed to fill and create an artificial pond.

Lakes, streams, rivers are public areas generally governed by the federal govt, unless in the case of a state park the federal govt secedes its rights to the state, then it becomes state jurisdiction, in either case the rules are the same.

the water way and 10 feet of land from the average water level are public. So any lake, rivers or streams and the first 10 feet from average water level are pubic property, Paid for by federal taxes. You can not claim this as Private.

A community wharf, is just that, a wharf or dock or construction that belongs to the community at large and gives access to a lake or large river.

Private docks, or docs that are privately own bought or built into the water are actually on Federal reserved waters and therefore act as a sidewalk into the water for the purpose of easing the land owners ability of getting in his boat or pontoon or canoe, what ever the reason for having it, it is not some sort of patio or private item one could say is personal, it becomes as public as the water it sits in. You might want to look up Riparian rights.

An other interesting read on larger bodies of water can be found here.

Lakes and rivers also fall under what is called the salvage law, might want to read up on that before you tie up a boat to a wharf or even decide to go out on a boat that might have trouble making it back to shore on its own.

Anyway, getting back to the point, IF the fishermen where within 10 feet of the waterway or in it, as on a boat or wharf, then they where on public property (think of it as a federal or state park).

IF their car was on the private public access road, they where allowed to be there. As long as they where not parked on private property or driveways without the owners approval.

The only time you might say they where trespassing is if in fact they where leaving through a private property on their own to get back to their car. If they where as you say "coerced" to leave by one of the property owners and crossed a property because it was the shortest way out, they could always say they where "Invited" by the intruder who asked them to leave and for safety's sake chose the quickest path.

It is pretty common for fly fishermen to fish from the shoreline, I myself do this often, IF i need to access the river by a private property, I will go to the home owner and ask if i might gain access through his property, but if this is not possible, I will access by a bridge side or a public wharf. Once on the waterfront, no one can say I am trespassing. So i can still get to where I wanted to go, although I might have to work a little harder and walk more than I had anticipated to do so.

As a good will gesture, when I leave, i will generally stop again at the home owners door if they let me cross their property and offer them a fish if I caught any.

Of course, like any nature lover, I always make sure not to leave any pollutant in my wake so that next time, i will again be welcomed.

[HiredGoon]

Mick used this very same descriptor

When the phone rings
It's just some friends of mine that say,
"Hey, what's the matter man?
We're gonna come around at twelve
With some Puerto Rican girls that are just dyin' to meet you
We're gonna bring a case of wine
Hey, let's go mess and fool around
You know, like we used to"

THE ROLLING STONES: "Miss You"

[Displaced]

I think he did OK, and pulling the gun when being approached was fine. Given that they were trespassing, someone ought to tell them to leave.

Two things he could have done better before that point would be get their license plate #, and call the PSP ahead of time. These guys might be repeat offenders, so getting their info in the books is important.

[Frenchy]

~snip~

Trespassing is trespassing, and there's a perfectly valid spot in our laws for giving notice to trespassers that they are in fact trespassing. It's in the trespassing statute.

I think he did OK, and pulling the gun when being approached was fine. Given that they were trespassing, someone ought to tell them to leave.

~snip~

Where is everyone getting that these people fishing where trespassers?

If they went from a public access wharf and followed the shoreline, they where not in fact trespassing but fishing on public waterways.

The person who asked them to leave IF he was not on his private property might have been the trespasser

[Adam-12]

Adam-12: I reread your post a couple times to try and verify the sarcasm. You were being sarcastic, right...?

I debated whether to say "noticeable" or some other word, and gave up. There are hints that racism may be in play, and some of the usual suspects are chiming in, but I haven't seen any overt expression of racism in the thread. Calling someone a "shady Puerto Rican guy" might indicate that you think Puerto Rican guys are generally shady, or it might just mean that this guy happened to be both Puerto Rican and shady.

So no, no sarcasm. While some commenters might be racist, they aren't necessarily making racist comments. That's why I made my warning general, rather than calling anyone out. If you believe minorities are disproportionately likely to commit crimes against you, then you have an extra reason not to be a racist asshole: by your own theory, if you ever have to shoot someone, he's liable to be a minority--and if you have a history of being a racist asshole, it may affect your credibility to a prosecutor and jury when you claim you were in reasonable fear for your life.

More generally, it's easier to pass a "reasonable person" test if you're known to be a reasonable person.

[American1776]

My own two cents: after the debacle that was the zimmerman trial, I've come to think that the best policy in cases like these is to call the authorities and be a good witness.

Call me a whimp, but even if someone is on my property outside my home, I'm not going to go outside armed and have a discussion. Now if innocent life was in imminent peril, that's a different story.

Yes, your friend had the right to go outside and discuss things with the riff-raff. Theres no law against that. But I just don't think it's the wisest thing to do. In my own situation, I would not voluntarily put myself in a situation where I might need to use deadly force. Even if in the right, drawing and shooting can be a financially, socially, and emotionally expensive decision to have to make. I want to minimize my having to make that decision as much as possible.

[Kabloosh]

Well if someone is charging you regardless if they are armed or not I'd say it was justified.

However, I also think the situation could have been avoided by not even confronting the guys unless property was threatened.

I would have called the police if I felt like something was up. Personally, I may have ignored them since all they were doing is fishing and I'm more of the not caring type unless shit is getting broken. If they looked like they were being trouble I would have then called the police and only confronted them if they were breaking my stuff. The trick to avoid having to pull your gun is to treat people with a certain level of respect. Otherwise you can cause the situation to get worse hence you may end up needing to defend yourself.

I think a lot of people seem to forget that the most powerful tool you have is your voice. How you speak to others is key as to whether everyone is walking home or someone is leaving in an ambulance or body bag.

[Displaced]

Where is everyone getting that these people fishing where trespassers?

If they went from a public access wharf and followed the shoreline, they where not in fact trespassing but fishing on public waterways.

The person who asked them to leave IF he was not on his private property might have been the trespasser

I read your post describing the property issues in a private community. All I know is, if it is my dock, they are trespassing. I get the road may be a different issue...maybe. That doesn't preclude telling them not to trespass (not saying that is the best choice, but it is an option), getting their license plate, and/or calling the PSP to get it on record.

Bottom line for me, if I see you on my private property, I will make the judgement call.

Wear your Penguins jersey and I may cut you some slack