First time permit application(s)

[HiredGoon]

In my opinion, since the sheriff did not deny issuing your LTCF, filing a challenge form would not be the correct thing to do. They denied to even accept your application (at first)
which is different than denying you your license.

Hope it works out well for you (as it should)

[LTCcarrier]

So my situation, due to my job, is that I maintain residences in both PA and OR. I have an OR driver's license and consider that state my primary residence. I hold at present an OR LTCF, as well as a FL LTCF. Since the AG has decided to negate my ability to carry in PA under the FL permit, and because PA doesn't have reciprocity with OR, I'm now forced to obtain a PA non-resident LTCF to carry in PA.

The Montgomery County Sheriff website, like many PA Sheriffs, now states he doesn't don't issue non-resident permits. This of course is contrary to PA gun statutes and is in violation of the preemption provision. I obtained and filled out the PSP application and attached a copy of my OR permit as required. Off I went to the court house and the Sheriff's office gun permit counter.

Upon arrival I encountered "Roger" behind the counter and informed him I was there to submit my LTCF, and provided him with the application. He then asked for my driver's license. I produced my OR license. Whoa, Roger tells me they only issue PA resident permits. I explained to Roger that was not allowable under PA statute. To which Roger replies that the Sheriff has that choice and won't issue non-resident permits. I stated I'd still like to apply. Roger said nope, won't accept the application. Ok, since I'm being denied, please provide me with the denial challenge form. Roger says "we don't have those". Really?

Time to start documenting the interchange. I advised Roger that I was going to audio and video record him. I produce my phone and started recording. I stated the time, date, location and purpose of the recording and asked Roger to state his name, which he did. I again advise Roger that I'd like to submit my application, he again refuses. I again ask Roger for the denial challenge form, he again states they have none. I then advised Roger that I believe he is mistaken because PSP is required to provide this form to all PA Sheriffs. Roger glares at me, reaches under the counter and produces the form. I thank him.

A nearby uniformed Deputy has witnessed this interchange and requests me to produce my license again. I comply. He asks me to wait a few moments and departs the gun permit office. He returns with another gentlemen a few minutes latter. This individual identifies himself as Lt. Stewart. Lt. Stewart advises me that because I don't have a PA license or ID card, PSP will not accept the application information and will not run the required criminal history check. I responded that seems odd (I'm a former LEO and know better) and state this appears to be an internal issue between PSP and the Sheriff's Office. I again ask to submit my application and it is gain refused. The Lt. advises that I will need to contact PSP. I advise Lt. Stewart that I will indeed contact PSP, and I depart.

From my car outside the court house I contact PSP. I am advised by the PSP Gun Section that what Lt. Stewart has advised is incorrect. PSP can and will run my criminal history check using my OR drivers license information. I call Lt. Stewart and advise him of what PSP has advised and provide him with the name and number of the person I spoke with at PSP. Lt. Stewart states that he has just spoken with Sheriff Bono, and that the Sheriff has stated he will not issue a non-resident LTCF permit. I remind Lt. Stewart that the Sheriff is obligated to abide by PA statutes and that his refusal is in violation of the preemption provision of the gun statutes. Lt. Stewart suggests that I contact the Sheriff directly.

The next day (12/12/14) I went back to the Sheriff's gun permit office. While standing in line in the hallway, I encountered Lt. Stewart. He inquired if I had spoken with the Sheriff. I advised that I had not and didn't intend to. I advised that I believed the Sheriff was obligated to accept my application. He would then have 45 days from the date of application to determine his position on issuance or denial. Lt. Stewart agreed that would be an acceptable course of action. My application was accepted and, upon my request, I received a date stamped copy to document the date of application.

The clock is now ticking. I'll advise in mid-February what the outcome is.

I encourage all potential applicants to educate themselves on the PA gun permit statutes (Title 18, Chapter 61) particularly the provision pertaining to preemption, which prohibits subordinate governmental entities (counties, cities, townships...) from attempting to enforce requirements or prohibitions not provided for by or which are contrary to PA statute. By the way, doing so is a first class misdemeanor and, as of new legislation enacted this year, subjects the entity to payment to an aggrieved party of attorney fees and damages.

Please contact me. I am in the same situation as you. I have maintain residences in FL and PA. I am former LEO and desire the permit and was told the same thing.

[dgm1012]

If your primary residency is Oregan, as stated in post, then why not apply for utah permit.

It is my understanding that unless you are a PA resident, you can carry in PA with another states permit. If you were a PA resident, then carrying in PA without a PA permit, even with Utah, would not be allowed.

The place I took my utah course at sends me coupons for their classes all the time. It's MMTA, the last offer I saw was for a $40 multi state course, which is their Utah. It was really fast & easy, you can buy prints and pics from them for like an extra $5-7 a piece.

I can look up more info if you'd like.

[dgm1012]

I can only speak to my situation as I would hate to mislead people. But I maintain residence in both PA and Delaware. My DL is pa, I pay taxes in PA, ect.

I have some family members who are attorneys and had one of them double check, and as such, please check with an attorney regarding your specific situation. But I was told, was according to DE, the only criteria used to determine residency for concealed carry purpose is the DL. As mine is PA, I am not required to have DE permit. I have PA, AZ, and utah, and carry legally with them.

From my non-attorney checked understanding of PA law in regards to your situation, you should be fine with the advice in my previous post.

[TMOwen5257]

LTCcarrier:

What state's DL are you carrying? If you have a FL DL, you're good to go in PA with a FL resident LTCF. If you have a PA DL, you'd need a PA resident LTCF.

In my case, I have an OR DL, and both an OR resident & a FL non-resident LTCF permit. Neither the OR resident or FL non-resident LTCF permit are presently recognized by PA. Thus my desire/reason/need to obtain a PA non-resident LTCF permit, as provided for by existing PA statute, to carry in PA.

I would encourage you to submit an application for a PA resident or non-resident LTCF permit, as appropriate! And to not take no for an answer (as well as to document and challenge a negative answer, if that's what you're given).

All of the above is, of course, merely my personal opinion, not legal advice!


dgm1012:

Could I acquire a Utah non-resident LTCF permit in lieu of a PA non-resident LTCF permit and be done with it? Sure, I suppose so. But why should I spend the additional time and money to do so when I'm entitled, yes; ENTITLED, as provided for under existing PA law, to be issued a PA non-resident LTCF permit?

Perhaps in forcing this issue I'm fulfilling my obligation, my duty as a citizen, to challenge a governmental abuse of power. Absent said challenges, the encroachments on our lawful rights become the norm. Sorry, but I'm not willing to go along to get along. That just doesn't sit well with me, nor does accepting (passively condoning) an abuse of authority. Never has, never will.

Happy Holidays, everyone!

[TMOwen5257]

I’m out in Oregon at present, which is my state of legal residence. Today, I received a denial letter from the Solicitor representing the Sheriff of Montgomery County (PA), in response to my non-resident LTCF application. The Solicitor signing the denial letter is Sean Cullen of Cullen & Conwell of Norristown.

The letter states:

The Sheriff Department of Montgomery County is in receipt of your application for a Pennsylvania License to Carry Firearms. Your application is denied. The Sheriff and his predecessors have a policy of issuing licenses only to Montgomery County residents. In addition you have also claimed privilege as to your references and therefore under 6109(d)(3) the Sheriff is not able to investigate whether you as the applicant's character and reputation are such that the applicant will not be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety.

(syntax error is the attorney's, not mine)

***

Well, not a surprise, I fully anticipated this position and denial. I do find it interesting that I've maintained dual residency in Montgomery County and Oregon for over seven years, without so much as a traffic violation, but that I might be a “danger to public safety”. A quick records check would quickly determine for the good Sheriff of MontCo that’s not the case. Oh, and my Oregon LTCF, a copy of which was attached to the MontCo LTCF application, was renewed in November 2014, after the Sheriff of Jackson County (OR) had completed just such a records check.

I'll be in contact with the law offices of Joshua Prince tomorrow to start the legal challenge process under the PA preemption provision.

Cheers.

[TMOwen5257]

I'm impressed!

I emailed Joshua Prince's law firm this morning and received a telephone call from his paralegal within 30 minutes. A telephonic discussion is scheduled with Mr. Prince to initiate a denial / preemption challenge.

Did I mention that I'm impressed with the responsiveness and professionalism of Mr. Prince's law firm? Well, I am!

[Royinmontco]

Just another first timer's experience:

About a week ago I contacted my local police chief (Lower Frederick) via email, and received a response from him personally that he signs off on check cards, generally speaking, within 24 hours. I dropped the card off at the township office, and picked it up about a week later (it was ready for that full week, i just didn't have the time to follow up on it). I was not charged any fee for this service.

Took my paperwork to the courthouse on Friday at lunch time, and waited about 10 minutes to be helped. I can't remember the name of the employee that helped me, but he was a uniformed officer and seemed to be a nice guy. While I was waiting for my background check to clear, another younger guy was being helped by "you know who", and he didn't have his check card. The sherriff's representative was quite insistent that this young man take care of the check card himself, to save everybody time. The "customer" was polite and complied with the request (I guess he'll come back at another time).

I was there for a total of maybe 30 minutes. One thing that was odd was there seemed to be no signs to get to the licensing office... I ended up wandering into the stockade and was politely escorted out....