Question About Buying a Pistol

[AR_George]

Hello,

I have a question about buying a pistol in PA that maybe someone here can answer.

Here's the background:

A few weeks ago I bought an 80% m1911 frame from Tactical Machining, that I want to use to make 9mm handgun as a hobby project.

Unfortunately I'm having a problem finding a 9mm slide and barrel (Sarco is backordered, Armscor is out, etc.).

I found another company, "Iver Johnson" that sells Philippine-made (but to their specs) m1911s and parts, but their prices are very high. For example, they sell a separate 9mm m1911 "upper", but the price they're asking is only about $30 or $40 less than what I would pay for a complete, brand new Rock Island 9mm m1911, and maybe $80 less than their own (i.e., Iver Johnson brand) complete m1911 9mm pistol.

As it turns out, I have a friend who's looking for a 9mm pistol caliber carbine. He was thinking about building a 9mm AR, but the cost is too high for him.
One of the things he was considering was a MechTech carbine, for which he would need a m1911 lower.

So here's my question: Would it be "legal" in PA for a FFL dealer to partly disassemble a complete Rock Island m1911 and to sell me the slide assy., barrel and barrel bushing, and sell my friend the frame?

If so, would my friend have to also fill out the state police form 4-113 and have the frame "registered" to him as a "pistol" in PA, even though he intends to use it in a long gun?

I realize that he could probably just buy the whole pistol and then sell me the "upper", but then he'd be stuck with a carbine that's "registered" to him as a pistol, which would seem to open up a can of worms, e.g., if he ever went to sell it, thus my questions.

[Gunsnwater]

Guess what? A 1911 frame is always gonna be registered as a pistol. All your complicated plans are for nothing. It also kinda makes selling the slide and barrel not worth it as it limits the choices even as the gun is still a pistol. Patience is a virtue and the parts you need will come in.

[AR_George]

Guess what? A 1911 frame is always gonna be registered as a pistol. All your complicated plans are for nothing. It also kinda makes selling the slide and barrel not worth it as it limits the choices even as the gun is still a pistol. Patience is a virtue and the parts you need will come in.

I'm not sure that's correct. Why? because Iver Johnson sells complete m1911 pistols, separate "uppers" and "lowers" and even a complete MechTech carbine, with an m1911 frame.

[thundrr1]

The 1911 frame is the gun. That is the part that requires FFL transfer (of this I'm positive). Converting it into a rifle gets you into NFA territory. Once you convert it to a rifle (as I recall) you can't go back to a pistol without BATF paperwork (tax stamp). I'd have to research that to be positive.

Someone who knows for sure will be along shortly.

[AR_George]

The 1911 frame is the gun. That is the part that requires FFL transfer (of this I'm positive). Converting it into a rifle gets you into NFA territory. Once you convert it to a rifle (as I recall) you can't go back to a pistol without BATF paperwork (tax stamp). I'd have to research that to be positive.

Someone who knows for sure will be along shortly.

I'm actually not questioning the process of "ffl transfer" per se, with regard to an m1911 frame (or any other ostensible "pistol" frame for that matter); rather, to be precise, I'm questioning the applicability of part "E" of the state police form SP 4-113.

Line E50 of that form reads as follows: "Does this purchase involve a pistol or revolver with a barrel length of less than 15 inches, a shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18 inches, a rifle with a barrel length of less than 16 inches, or a firearm with an overall length of less than 26 inches? Yes (Complete blocks 51-55); No (Information not required)."

[Note: block 55 is where the serial number is recorded.]

As I see it, if words mean what they say, the text of E50 can only meaningfully be applied to something with a barrel, i.e., a complete firearm; and an m1911 frame is not a complete firearm.

[thundrr1]

From the BATF

§ 921 Definitions.
(a) As used in this chapter—
(1) The term "person" and the term
"whoever" include any individual, corporation,
company, association, firm,
partnership, society, or joint stock company.
(2) The term "interstate or foreign
commerce" includes commerce between
any place in a State and any
place outside of that State, or within
any possession of the United States
(not including the Canal Zone) or the
District of Columbia, but such term
does not include commerce between
places within the same State but
through any place outside of that State.
The term "State" includes the District
of Columbia, the Commonwealth of
Puerto Rico, and the possessions of the
United States (not including the Canal
Zone).
(3) The term "firearm" means (A)
any weapon (including a starter gun)
which will or is designed to or may
readily be converted to expel a projectile
by the action of an explosive; (B)
the frame or receiver of any such
weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm
silencer; or (D) any destructive device.
Such term does not include an
antique firearm.

[Gun]

Hello,


So here's my question: Would it be "legal" in PA for a FFL dealer to partly disassemble a complete Rock Island m1911 and to sell me the slide assy., barrel and barrel bushing, and sell my friend the frame?

Yes, but the FFL will probably just sell the whole 1911 to your friend, and then you can buy the upper from him, which makes more sense. What doesn't make sense is your friend will not have an upper to convert back to a 1911 handgun.

The 1911 frame is the gun. That is the part that requires FFL transfer (of this I'm positive). Converting it into a rifle gets you into NFA territory. Once you convert it to a rifle (as I recall) you can't go back to a pistol without BATF paperwork (tax stamp).

No. In kit form, pistol to rifle to pistol has been ruled on by the ATF. No taxation.

http://www.mechtechsys.com/faqs.php#a0

[39flathead]

A complete pistol leaves the factory as a pistol, so no matter what a dealer does to it before you buy it, it is still a pistol when sold.

He can strip it to components, but that frame was still a pistol when it left the factory.

As for someone selling a 1911 carbine using a 1911 frame, it leaves the factory as a rifle.

[thundrr1]

[SIZE="3"][FONT="Century Gothic"]
No. In kit form, pistol to rifle to pistol has been ruled on by the ATF. No taxation.

http://www.mechtechsys.com/faqs.php#a0

Thank you very much for that info....... I am now up to date.

It does raise the question that if I buy a 1911 and covert it, is it legal?,,,, As I didn't buy a "kit".

[AR_George]

From the BATF

§ 921 Definitions.

<snip>

(3) The term "firearm" means (A)
any weapon (including a starter gun)
which will or is designed to or may
readily be converted to expel a projectile
by the action of an explosive; (B)
the frame or receiver of any such
weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm
silencer; or (D) any destructive device.
Such term does not include an
antique firearm.

I don't see how this is relevant at all. Yes, in a particular context involving federal law, as far as BATF is concerned, the "frame" or "receiver" is considered a firearm, but so what? What does that have to do with PA form SP 4-113? As far as I can see, nothing, since, as I previously pointed out, it is textally demonstrable that block "E50" clearly only applies to complete firearms according to barrel (or overall) length.