Class 3 pistol/sbr connundrum.

[ReefBlue]

So here is an odd question.

If I buy a Kriss Vector SBR--a kit with lots of accessories--magazines, optics a carry bag, etc., when I show up at my local dealer to inspect the weapon, am I allowed to bring home the magazines, optics, bag, etc.?


The real question comes from the core vector pistol by itself isn't class 3, so I can posses it without an issue. The stock and foregrip is what makes it scary, so I should have to let the dealer hold the stock and grip and take the pistol home, right? If not, why not? Would the opposite be true, would I be able to take the grip and stock home and leave the pistol at the dealer?

[ungawa]

That sounds like two questions.

You can definitely bring home any part that is not considered a firearm.

As for the "pistol" (this is really sketchy stuff, verify yourself and beware) - An SBR becomes regulated as a rifle when it is no longer in SBR configuration but in rifle configuration. For instance, if it is an SBR because of a stock and a short barrel, it becomes a rifle when you put a 16" barrel on it and you can travel interstate with it without informing ATF and turn it back into an SBR in the state it is registered. You can even sell it as a regular Title I firearm (a rifle) even thought it is registered as an SBR (strongly recommended to tell ATF to remove from registry) but obviously the SBR status of the rifle does not transfer to somebody else tax-free.

I don't know how it works with a pistol.

I also don't know how it works with a Class III dealer.

Further, even if it was legal, my gut tells me most dealers would not want to transfer you a Title I firearm in their bound book as a Title II only to have you transfer it back as a Title I and have them convert it to a Title II all while a stamp is pending. That just hurt my brain, I'm not sure it's possible even if legal. But the bottom line is I do not know.

[corey4]

i am not familiar with the kriss vector.

but i am kinda in your situation with a daniel defense factory SBR MK18. my dealer has the lower, the actual NFA firearm on paper, and i have the 10.3" upper at home. when i asked if i could take the upper home to clean it (he let me have a conjugal visit with it and my saker suppressor), he said, "yes, i don't care, you know the rules.", with the gleaming eye of "you better not be doing what i think you are doing" type deal.

as long as i don't mount it to a rifle lower, i am good to go.

EDIT:
the registered NFA item has to stay at your dealer until it is time to bring home the new baby.

[GunLawyer001]

The dealer is a Class III dealer. The firearm is an NFA firearm, or a Title II firearm, not a "Class III firearm". It's a common mistake (that "NFA expert" in Florida made the same mistake on his website), like clips vs magazines. Not your fault, just taking this opportunity to point it out again.

If a Form 4 is pending, then no, you can't take the firearm home with you, not in any configuration. Some dealers aren't even willing to let you take the accessories with you, in case the Form is denied for some reason, and then you have the mess of bringing the "used" parts back and asking him to resell as "new" the kit that was rattling around your home for months.

[corey4]

not to hijack the thread, but i am going to anyways...

other than the accessories being taken home and possibly dickered up, what about taking the upper home, of course, all NFA rules apply.

[GunLawyer001]

not to hijack the thread, but i am going to anyways...

other than the accessories being taken home and possibly dickered up, what about taking the upper home, of course, all NFA rules apply.

ATF got their ass handed to them by the Supreme Court, in the Thompson Center case. Since then, their views on what constitutes "constructive possession" of an unregistered SBR have been trimmed back considerably.

Still, the Court said that if you have legal uses for all of the parts that "could" be used to make an SBR, then you're good. The implication of course is that if you DON'T have legal uses for all the parts, then you may be in trouble.

If you have nothing but Title I AR rifles, plus a short barrel, then you may not have a legal use for the barrel. On the other hand, if you have an AR pistol, or a virgin lower that you keep in the bag with the shorty upper, then you have a legal use for that barrel.

You can get a stripped lower for $50 or less these days, so everybody should have at least one in their possession.

[ReefBlue]

ATF got their ass handed to them by the Supreme Court, in the Thompson Center case. Since then, their views on what constitutes "constructive possession" of an unregistered SBR have been trimmed back considerably.

Still, the Court said that if you have legal uses for all of the parts that "could" be used to make an SBR, then you're good. The implication of course is that if you DON'T have legal uses for all the parts, then you may be in trouble.

If you have nothing but Title I AR rifles, plus a short barrel, then you may not have a legal use for the barrel. On the other hand, if you have an AR pistol, or a virgin lower that you keep in the bag with the shorty upper, then you have a legal use for that barrel.

You can get a stripped lower for $50 or less these days, so everybody should have at least one in their possession.

We don't have a facepalm smiley on here, but we should. I love that constructive possession scam.

I have a foregrip on my shotgun and a pistol with a rail on it.

Is that constructive possession for a sbr? If not, why not? I could easily put that grip on my pistol, no different that putting a 10 inch upper on some random AR lower.

[ungawa]

We don't have a facepalm smiley on here, but we should. I love that constructive possession scam.

I have a foregrip on my shotgun and a pistol with a rail on it.

Is that constructive possession for a sbr? If not, why not? I could easily put that grip on my pistol, no different that putting a 10 inch upper on some random AR lower.

I think he just explained that. You have a legal use for your foregrip - your shotgun. You have a legal use for a rail on a pistol - most pistols have rails from the factory now for that reason.

[JoshIronshaft]

So here is an odd question.

If I buy a Kriss Vector SBR--a kit with lots of accessories--magazines, optics a carry bag, etc., when I show up at my local dealer to inspect the weapon, am I allowed to bring home the magazines, optics, bag, etc.?


The real question comes from the core vector pistol by itself isn't class 3, so I can posses it without an issue. The stock and foregrip is what makes it scary, so I should have to let the dealer hold the stock and grip and take the pistol home, right? If not, why not? Would the opposite be true, would I be able to take the grip and stock home and leave the pistol at the dealer?

Since you're buying an NFA item, and that guns serial number is on the Form 4 that is pending with the ATF, I'm no layer but I'm pretty sure the dealer can't transfer it to you as a pistol without the stock, then take it back and transfer it to you as an NFA item. Also they may not have the appropriate licensing to even manufacture an SBR, if everything else was possible, and that is what they would be doing in the eyes of the ATF.

I would just leave it all with the dealer and beg for conjugal visits.

[BenelliGrl]

We don't have a facepalm smiley on here, but we should. I love that constructive possession scam.

I have a foregrip on my shotgun and a pistol with a rail on it.

Is that constructive possession for a sbr? If not, why not? I could easily put that grip on my pistol, no different that putting a 10 inch upper on some random AR lower.

https://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2...fore-grip.html
Above is the ATFs ruling on adding a fore grip to a pistol. Just in case you were wondering how they actually view it. Most class III shops, mine included run under the ruling of if it came to us on a Form 3, and we are doing a Form 4 for you, it stays at the shop. (You may visit it, of course! Lol)
It simply avoids the risk of anyone, dealer or customer, getting jammed up during the process.