What's instruction worth?

[PeteG]

As recently as the late 1990's, firearms training from professional sources was not generally available. Police, government and military training was not available to private citizens (and was of inconsistent quality and value anyway).

Along came John Glenn Cooper and his group, and over the period between 1968 and 1998 they developed the first curriculum that could be handed to an experienced gunman and, if he had the personality and predilections to teach, he could pass the information along. Out of that organization (The American Pistol Institute, later Gunsite Training Center) came a short list of "tier one" firearms instructors whose names we now know. This pretty much invented the "firearms training industry."

Any ordinary guy, if he were sufficiently motivated, had the opportunity to train shoulder-to-shoulder with members of police and military units, learning the same techniques, and using the same weapons (with the occasional exception of Class III weapons or explosives). I can think of no other country in the world where private citizens can do that, and it impressed me as a concrete illustration of the difference between this country and all the others.

But in order to avail oneself of the opportunity to obtain competent, professional training from people who used firearms for a living, one had to spend a lot of money and take a lot of time. A trip to Gunsite in 1995 to take the 250 pistol course cost $760 in tuition, plus air fare, a hotel room for a week, and a week off work. It would run a fellow just under $1,800 in 1995 dollars. I guess it would equate to about $3,500 today, not counting the time off work.

That said, almost all of the people who had the experience thought it was cheap at the price. It was the experience of a lifetime; what's that worth? It did change lives; what's that cost?

Then Cooper's invention was taken up by thousands of aspiring instructors, in one form or another. (That was, after all, the idea.) There was an explosion of trainers and training.

The result is that a reasonable approximation of the instruction for which one used to have to pay a fortune and burn half-a-years vacation time is now available to anyone, at a fraction of the cost, in two-day and three-day bites.

No local course (including any run by me) will provide the same experience as a week with one of the old-guard professionals at a dedicated facility. As I said, those experiences were unique to those who value that sort of thing. But today one can get a taste, and the same information, at relatively insignificant cost in time and money.

So when I see somebody who owns eight rifles, wearing $180 sunglasses and carrying a $400 folding knife whining that they don't want to drive four hours, have to stay overnight at a motel or expend 400 rounds of "expensive" ammo, I chuckle to myself. It's so very, very easy now.

It is a matter of values. I don't remember what stuff I owned in 1995 (other than those of the firearms I used in my courses and still own, having ditched the junk). But I will never forget any of my instructors, the courses I took, or the like-minded friends I have made. Then there is the matter of how much it is worth to be confident one knows what they are doing.

As Clint Smith said, "You can't buy competence."

And if one could, many would actually rather have the sunglasses.

[wanneroo]

I know the training business well and the top tier of training centers, most of which not open to civilians unless they are willing to pay for a custom course tailored to their needs($$$ few want to pay).

As we say in the business you pay peanuts you get monkeys(in regards to the instructors). You get what you pay for essentially in most cases.

That said there are a lot of talented people out there that can help at a local level without a high price tag attached. Without a dedicated facility though there is only so far they can take it, however for a lot of civilians that's all they need.

Like any tool, if you want to be competent with it, getting instruction is a good thing to do. However I always phrase it like this: I'm not telling people exactly how to do things in whatever scenario it is, I'm simply giving them a range of options and tools to expand their knowledge and which they can apply to whatever the situation is at their choosing.

There is a huge range of knowledge out there so I don't think any one person or curriculum is the be all end all. A lot of people mention Gunsite or Front Sight or a range of other places. It's good to go to places like that but don't get in the mindset just because you had XYZ course you are now a high speed ninja operator.

[PeteG]

That said there are a lot of talented people out there that can help at a local level without a high price tag attached. Without a dedicated facility though there is only so far they can take it, however for a lot of civilians that's all they need.

There is a huge range of knowledge out there so I don't think any one person or curriculum is the be all end all. A lot of people mention Gunsite or Front Sight or a range of other places. It's good to go to places like that but don't get in the mindset just because you had XYZ course you are now a high speed ninja operator.

It has been my experience that three days of the fundamentals is all the private citizen needs or can handle. It's not magic, but it does take some time to learn and maintain.

But some people think there is something about them, such that if they want to learn how to use a paint gun to spray the deck they want Michelangelo or nobody. Then they decide Michelangelo is way too expensive (which, of course, he is unless you are looking for fine points of technique only a master will know). It's a rather convoluted way of talking oneself out of the whole process.

By the way, the Gunsite to which I referred no longer exists. (Another good reason to stop rationalizing and endlessly pouring over "the considerations" and take the experience when it is there ... it might not be possible next year.)

[B.A.]

Personally I think training with a good qualified instructor is worth it's weight in gold. While we are talking about Jeff Cooper one of my favorite quotes from his is "Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician."

I've met countless people over the years that have this and that flavor of the week gun and accessories but can't hit the broad side of a barn from a bench, forget about actually being able to manipulate a firearm as needed in a serious situation.

Training is one of the single most over looked aspects of firearm ownership. When ever people ask me about what gun to buy I give them options and then tell then they need extra mags, ammo, a good quality holster and then train train train!

I think we are kind lucky here in PA we have a few good quality schools within easy distance to most parts of the state.

[wanneroo]

I've met countless people over the years that have this and that flavor of the week gun and accessories but can't hit the broad side of a barn from a bench, forget about actually being able to manipulate a firearm as needed in a serious situation.

My experience is that the more junk I see hanging off a gun, the worse a shooter the person is. A lot of people people try to buy themselves accuracy and ability with more junk without learning how to use whatever it is as it is.

It's like a friend I have that wanted to spend more money to put more horsepower in his race car. I said until you are driving the car as is at 10/10th, you are wasting your money.

[animalmother85]

I get paid to take the most up to date courses...but on the other side of that token, I am expected to employ it. Pros and Cons.

[free]

I suspect there are a lot of parallels with (scuba) dive training. A lot of people will spent thousands of dollars on gear and trips, but not want to spend any more than they have to on the minimum training needed to go diving.

In short, the vast majority of people are "cheap" when it comes to spending money on things they can't touch/feel/see/show off. You can see it on this board when people say they "I have $X hundred dollars to spend, what should I buy?". It is probably not even occurring to them that maybe they should spend that money on ammo, let alone training.

I don't think your observations are limited to the gun-toting crowd. I suspect it is true for people with all kinds of hobbies. How many people driving fancy/souped up cars are spending money on training to drive them properly? How many golfers do you know spend money on golf lessons? The list goes on and on.

Anyway - here is a thought for you and other instructors - check into the PADI model of scuba diving training (http://www.padi.com/scuba/padi-cours...s/default.aspx). Lots of classes, each has a standardized text, a plastic certification card, etc. PADI training centers all over the place. PADI makes a lot of money. There is no reason why shooters couldn't do the same thing. Call it PAFI (Professional Association of Firearms Instructors), or PASI (Professional Association of Shooting Instructors), or something. Then you can tie into the "card collectors" AND when someone shows their "cert card" as a prerequisite, you can have some confidence of what it means (I've read the stuff on your site about this issue). Anyway - not telling you how to go about your business, it's just what came into my mind when I referenced the diver example above. PADI is very successful with a world wide training org for divers, done right, I think firearms instructors could do the same thing.

On a related note, I value carbine training enough to give up my pay on Friday, and I will see you then Pete (:

Thanks,
F

[G17-5291]

For someone that is very new to shooting and may be intimidated by the whole process, training is probably a good idea. But there is also something to be said for teaching yourself if you are more experienced and have the fundamentals down.

I myself knew a whole lot about firearms before I was ever even old enough to buy them. It was almost a hobby in itself, learning, and preparing for the day that I could buy a gun, and start shooting and putting into practice all that I had read about. I'm no expert, but I am competent and confident in my abilities. I have never taken a class that has had anything to do with firearms except a hunter safety course. My best training is going to the range when it's empty with a few boxes of ammo and running some drills. Practice makes perfect, and you don't have to pay someone to tell you the correct way to do something. Simply put, it's better to make the mistakes, and then correct them yourself.

A great deal of people who kill someone in self defense are single moms and little old grannies that grab their late husband's old .38 out of a drawer and shoot it for the first time in their life dropping a home intruder dead in the middle of the night. Just because you are trained doesn't mean you will win. Luck has a place in many instances.

[scruff]

For someone that is very new to shooting and may be intimidated by the whole process, training is probably a good idea. But there is also something to be said for teaching yourself if you are more experienced and have the fundamentals down.

I myself knew a whole lot about firearms before I was ever even old enough to buy them. It was almost a hobby in itself, learning, and preparing for the day that I could buy a gun, and start shooting and putting into practice all that I had read about. I'm no expert, but I am competent and confident in my abilities. I have never taken a class that has had anything to do with firearms except a hunter safety course. My best training is going to the range when it's empty with a few boxes of ammo and running some drills. Practice makes perfect, and you don't have to pay someone to tell you the correct way to do something. Simply put, it's better to make the mistakes, and then correct them yourself.

A great deal of people who kill someone in self defense are single moms and little old grannies that grab their late husband's old .38 out of a drawer and shoot it for the first time in their life dropping a home intruder dead in the middle of the night. Just because you are trained doesn't mean you will win. Luck has a place in many instances.

Practice by itself doesn't make perfect, it only reinforces ignorance and bad habits. You might be getting good at punching holes in paper, but there's a lot more to the typical personal defense class than just marksmanship.

[PeteG]

Anyway - here is a thought for you and other instructors - check into the PADI model of scuba diving training (http://www.padi.com/scuba/padi-cours...s/default.aspx). Lots of classes, each has a standardized text, a plastic certification card, etc. PADI training centers all over the place. PADI makes a lot of money. There is no reason why shooters couldn't do the same thing. Call it PAFI (Professional Association of Firearms Instructors), or PASI (Professional Association of Shooting Instructors), or something. Then you can tie into the "card collectors" AND when someone shows their "cert card" as a prerequisite, you can have some confidence of what it means (I've read the stuff on your site about this issue). Anyway - not telling you how to go about your business, it's just what came into my mind when I referenced the diver example above. PADI is very successful with a world wide training org for divers, done right, I think firearms instructors could do the same thing.

I will take a look between now and Friday, and we can talk about it as time permits over the week-end.

"Card collectors" are very profitable. If I were in this for the money, I would not bust my ass running three-day substantive courses; I would be doing a Utah CCW class every week. When we did Utah CCW certification, the F.I.R.E. Institute classes were always full.

I might augment that with half-day courses on very specialized aspects of shooting (like "aluminum cased ammunition certification"), and give out merit badg .... er .... certificates at the end of each course. Ka-Ching!

As for standardizing actual instruction, it is extremely difficult. To apply a set of standards to a curriculum of any depth, even for the mechanical aspects of the process, one has to preclude the instructors from ad-libbing too much. Even within a single school, there are repeated conflicts over whether this guy or that is "sticking to doctrine," or even if that's important.

So far, the only way I have found to know if a fellow knows what he is doing is put him on line and watch him run a couple of drills. And that only covers the mechanical aspects of the process.

Even knowing an individual was trained by someone I know and trust does not always work out. Some (actually most) don't continually work with it, and lose it. Some also wandered off and find "better ways" that make them special. It also has the drawback of becoming too "clubby."

Meantime, I'm ramping up with all the paperwork and arrangements for Friday. Ugh. But then at least I know we can have some fun. We will get a big sign for your back that says "FREE," so I will finally know W(who)TF somebody here really is. :-)