Good bullets and bad bullets

[skyjerk]

I tested out some loads for home defense the other day.

These were .45 ACP rounds I loaded myself.

Both used:

Reloaded Fiocci brass
CCI large pistol primers

One batch I used Remington Golden saber 230 gr JHP w/5.4 gr of Bullseye
One batch I used Remington 185 gr JHP (not golden saber) w/4.7 gr of Clays

the 185 grain loads were approximately 900fps
the 230 grain loads were approximately 860fps

These velocities are based on the loading data results and not actually measured by me.

I fired several of each into a couple thick phonebooks saturated with water.
Total thickness was around 10" of wet paper.

The 185 grain rounds got a lot more penetration, making it almost all the way through to about 9".

They didnt expand AT ALL. Not even a teeny bit.
VERY disappointing.
I think if I shot someone it would go right through and maybe do some damage to whatever or whoever was behind.

They have been categorized (by me) as totally useless for self defense.

The 230 grain golden sabers on the other hand, made it through about 7" of wet paper
and expanded perfectly to max diameter.

They were perfect little mushrooms of death and destruction. Every single one expanded and performed perfectly and didn't over penetrate. Woe is he that gets shot with these :-)

Wish I had pictures, but the wife took the digital camera to visit her mom.
I'll add some later when she gets back if anyone is interested...

These are the ONLY bullets I'm loading (for home defense) from now on.

[knight0334]

It takes a properly designed bullet to expand at lower velocities.

Despite the tactical craze and hoopla - JHP's have a fairly high expansion failure rate in real world performance and even test conditions even with specialty loads. You almost need magnum muzzle velocities to guarantee expansion.

Just because a bullet doesn't expand - it doesn't make it useless. 2 holes bleeds out a badguy faster than 1 hole. And remember - your 45acp makes a .451" hole to begin with, where as a successful expansion of a 38spl, 9mm, etc might make the same diameter hole - and certainly they aren't useless..

With penetration.. The major human organs are just a couple inches under the skin. I dont care how many skilled professional advisers say you need 10-15" of penetration - it only takes less than 1 inch to stop and/or kill. If if they want to back up their 10-15" penetration theory - then they can let me shoot them with a 25acp or 22short to prove it. 7" of wet newspaper or 12" of gelatin is not the same as .25-.5" of clothing, .25-.5" of skin and muscle, .5-.75" of bone and 2-3" of organ.

Death is NOT an exact science and bullet performance isn't the holy bible of defensive guidelines. One man may walk away with 6 44mag holes in front and 6 44mag holes in back of his body, but a smack in the face with a feather pillow may kill someone else.

I've shot more holes in organic and nonorganic objects than most of those "professionals" have ever thought to even point a gun at. I've seen low velocity cheapo ammo go through kevlar vests, seen FMJ's ricochet 3 times, then go completely through someone and flattened out as a pristine JHP would. I've seen a guy get his whole mandible blown off along about 1/4th of his neck by a 12ga blast at 10ft away with birdshot then proceeded to kill the shooter with his bare hands before he died(so much for the birdshot arguement).


Sometimes the best advise is to not to listen to advise.

If your ammo shoots accurate and reliable out of that gun - then use it. Dont bite on the myths and theories of the "knowledgeable" and "professionals".

[shooter357]

That will only tell you what the bullet can do and not what it will do. If it went through 7" to get the mushroom it will go right through a person before you get that nice mushroom look. I have found that Nosler 185gr mushrooms nicely, however that is not tested, by me, on actual flesh. If you are looking to find out how they open in real life situations I suggest that you use ballistics gel.
Ballistics Gel
The tissue simulant utilized in FBI ballistic tests is Vyse ordinance gelatin. The mixture is 10%, by weight. The mentioned research shows that properly calibrated 10% ordinance gelatin is a reliable tissue simulant. Calibration of ballistic gelatin is verified by firing a .177 steel BB at 590 feet per second (fps), plus or minus 15 fps, into the gelatin, resulting in 8.5 centimeters (cm), plus or minus 1 cm, penetration (2.95" - 3.74"). During FBI tests, any gelatin blocks which fail the calibration test are discarded. Calibration results are not published due to the Pass/Fail nature of the test.
The gelatin is mixed in the following manner (assuming a 20 pound block is desired):
Weigh out two (2) lbs. of gelatin powder and place aside.
Weigh out 18 lbs. of hot 60° C (140° F) water in a plastic bucket. (Note: The FBI utilizes a scale which weighs to the nearest .01 lb).
Place 2.5 ml of Foam Eater in water.
Place approximately .5 ml. of oil of cinnamon into water (prevents fungus growth).
While utilizing a battery-operated drill with a mixing paddle attached, mix the water to the point of forming a whirlpool, but without introducing air into the mixture.
While the water is being mixed, slowly add the gelatin powder.
Pour the mixture into a clean mold pan.
Allow to stand at room temperature for approximately 4 hours.
Write date on small square of cardboard and place on top of mixture.
Place pan with mixture into refrigerator set at 4° C (39.2° F).
Allow to cure for 36 hours (note: larger blocks require longer cure time e.g. an 80lb block requires 96 hours to cure).
Blocks, over time, deteriorate and are temperature sensitive. Former FBI publications advocated utilizing blocks within 20 minutes of removal from the refrigerator (a general statement pertaining to ambient temperature indoors). Allowable time outside the refrigerator is, however, relative to the temperature of the test environment (e.g. a block removed from a refrigerator and maintained in a room at the same temperature as the refrigerator will retain its calibration significantly longer than one placed outside on a hot summer day). Note: some authorities believe mixing procedures may vary the consistency of gelatin. FBI studies indicate, however, that a block which displays the required level of penetration, within the required velocity range, is a “valid” tissue simulant.
The FBI Ballistic Research Facility conducts its tests in an environmentally controlled shooting laboratory. Blocks of gelatin are removed from the refrigerator and checked for calibration. Only valid blocks are used for testing. Blocks used in testing of conventional pistol ammunition are approximately 6.25" X 6.25" X 16". The initial block of gelatin used in a test is called the Primary Block. Each Primary block is utilized for a maximum of 5 shots, one in each corner, approximately 1.75" from the nearest edge, and one in the center. Tests conducted by the FBI indicate this placement of shots results in substantially the same penetration as single shots into virgin blocks of gelatin. Any shots which cross the wound path of previous shots are refired. Primary blocks are not utilized for more than 5 shots, to include any shots which are refired.
Posted by: Jamie H. at December 11, 2005 05:52 AM

[shooter357]

My reply was to the OP. Looks like someone beat me to it.

[skyjerk]

Dont bite on the myths and theories of the "knowledgeable" and "professionals".

Agreed. Reading only gets you started, then you have to take that info and see how it works in the real world.

And point well taken about the hole sizes :-)

Accuracy was about the same for both rounds.

Still, if I am gonna buy JHP bullets, I'll stick with the ones that expand well at the velocities that I will be propelling them

The Golden Sabers definitely performed much better.

[skyjerk]

If it went through 7" to get the mushroom it will go right through a person before you get that nice mushroom look.

I cant really say how far it had to penetrate before it was fully expanded.

I can only say that it made it through 6 or 7" of wet paper and that it HAD reached maximum expansion before it stopped.

It might have been fully expanded after 4 inches. The wet paper was way too screwed up
to make a call on that.

I'm still planning on trying that bullet out at lower velocities too.

The ballistics gel might give me a better read, but I dont really have the facilities to make it.

I was more interested in seeing how one performed compared to the other, and the GS bullets were clearly better.

[knight0334]

I cant really say how far it had to penetrate before it was fully expanded.

I can only say that it made it through 6 or 7" of wet paper and that it HAD reached maximum expansion before it stopped.

It might have been fully expanded after 4 inches. The wet paper was way too screwed up
to make a call on that.

I'm still planning on trying that bullet out at lower velocities too.

The ballistics gel might give me a better read, but I dont really have the facilities to make it.

I was more interested in seeing how one performed compared to the other, and the GS bullets were clearly better.

The gel is quite easy to make at home with hot water, grocery store gelatin mix and some Dollar Store storage containers.

That 230gr expanded load looks to be a half decent performer. Willing to bet it'd expand on a ribcage but have enough inertia to make sausage of heart/lungs before passing through the back of the ribcage of 90% of most people.

[skyjerk]

The gel is quite easy to make at home with hot water, grocery store gelatin mix and some Dollar Store storage containers.

That 230gr expanded load looks to be a half decent performer. Willing to bet it'd expand on a ribcage but have enough inertia to make sausage of heart/lungs before passing through the back of the ribcage of 90% of most people.

The bullet gets nothing but great reviews and its actually affordable if I load em myself :-)

[Dredly]

where are you buying your bullets from? Just curious

[skyjerk]

where are you buying your bullets from? Just curious

I buy bullets from lots of different places, but I got the Golden Sabers from Midway.
They were $26.99 for 100 and should last me a while because they are only for home defense.

I'll keep a magazine full for a couple months, then bang them off at the range and make another magazine full.

Keeps my home defense rounds relatively fresh at all times