Family of man killed by police officer outraged

[WhiteFeather]

Something for everyone to debate on this one, as usual there is always more to incident than is reported in media or to draw a conclusion from.

Good clean shoot or bad shoot?

Or gun control law death?


http://www.dispatch.com/live/content...s&cat=&sid=101

Family of man killed by officer outraged

The family of a Louisiana man killed by a Columbus police officer Friday night acknowledges that he was carrying a gun but says he shouldn't have been shot.

Relatives of Edward Hayes, 31, including a brother and cousin who were with him when police first confronted them, say he was running away from officers and never intended to use the gun he had tucked in his waistband.

"He was saying, 'Don't shoot! Don't shoot! I got a gun but don't shoot!' " said his younger brother, Dwayne Hayes. "He was trying not to get killed," said grandmother Cecelia Callender.

She and other relatives who traveled to Columbus from Louisiana after hearing of the shooting gathered yesterday at a relative's home on the West Side.

Edward Hayes had his hand on the gun as he ran, Dwayne Hayes said, but he said he never saw his brother take out the weapon.

Hayes was shot at Mount Vernon Avenue and N. 17th Street on the Near East Side about 11 p.m. by Officer Fredrick Hannah, an officer for nine years who has been involved in two prior shootings. The men he shot in those cases survived, and the Police Division said Hannah, 35, was justified both times.

The allegations raised by Hayes' family were rebutted by the head of the local police union, who said the shooting would not have occurred if Hayes and others in the car weren't carrying illegal guns.

"Our officer has a responsibility to react to a suspect's actions, and he did so," said Jim Gilbert, president of the Fraternal Order of Police Capital City Lodge No. 9. "The burden is not on us to wait and be fired upon."

Police have released few details of the shooting, saying Hannah and Edward Hayes had a "brief confrontation" and that Hayes "displayed a gun" after running from a car.

A paramedic could be heard saying over Fire Division radios that night that Hayes was shot in the upper back or back of his neck. He died a short time later.

Two other suspects, Lester K. Joseph, 31, and Dwight T. Jackson Jr., 30, were caught and arrested. Joseph, the car's driver and Hayes' cousin, was charged with carrying a concealed weapon and improper transport of a gun. Jackson was charged with carrying a concealed weapon and tampering with evidence. Dwayne Hayes wasn't charged.

Columbus Safety Director Mitchell Brown told City Council members last night that Police Division officials already have begun an investigation of the shooting.

He said he has asked the city's Community Relations Commission to put together a group of residents to "mitigate any overreaction" in the Mount Vernon area.

About 25 people, including Hayes' family, stood at last night's council meeting as Near East Side activist Barry Edney called on the city to suspend Mayor Michael B. Coleman's summer strike-force initiative, which puts extra police in high-crime areas. Hannah was part of that detail when he shot Hayes.

Edney said he witnessed the shooting. He said Hayes was chased by police and shot after pleading for his life.

"We're going to make sure justice is served, even if we have to get the federal government in," said Edney, who was escorted out of City Hall by two police officers after speaking beyond the council's three-minute limit.

Police said they first approached the parked car in which Hayes was sitting because they suspected a drug deal was occurring, although no drug charges have been filed. Police recovered three guns.

In a brief telephone interview from the Franklin County jail, Joseph said he heard the shots that killed his cousin. He said they ran because they wanted to ditch the guns and avoid arrest, but they wouldn't have shot at the police officers.

"Everything is happening so fast, I'm discombobulated," he said.

Dwayne Hayes said he saw his brother run past him but didn't realize until later that he had been shot.

Elaine Valentine Hayes said her son had no drugs.

"Say my child had a gun and you're telling the truth, but say my child had drugs and you're lying," she said.

Louisiana court records show that Jackson and Joseph have prior drug convictions, but Dwayne Hayes insisted the group was only socializing with some young women when police rolled up.

Family members said Edward Hayes was killed on his oldest daughter's 16th birthday. He had been visiting Columbus from New Orleans for a graduation party and a wedding.

"They should have arrested him and let a judge decide," said his father, Don Hayes Sr., who worked with him in catering at the New Orleans zoo. "This boy was not going to shoot somebody. He was murdered."

"OK, he was wrong for having a gun, but he still was a human," Valentine Hayes said. "There's a punishment for everything. But is the punishment death?"

[PisnNapalm]

This is gonna be their word against the word of the officer involved. Just my gut feeling but I imagine the officer is going to be vindicated.

He was shot in the back though.... hmmm... I dunno. This is tough.

[ScubaVr6]

I don't think the fact that he was shot in the back matters. If he posed a threat to the officers or the safety of others and the p/o saw him reaching and or with his hand on said gun. They are entitled to use deadly force. This is an example of when it is okay for an officer to use lethal force and not a citizen.

[pex]

Do you realize how little weight 'posing a threat' goes in Terry disarmament in PA, right? Are you applying 'posing a threat' with a different gravity as it applies to this situation?

A brief mention from our PA Supreme Court...Commonwealth v. Hawkins

Even if the Constitution of Pennsylvania would permit such
invasive police activity as the Commonwealth proposes -- which it does not --
such activity seems more likely to endanger than to protect the public.
Unnecessary police intervention, by definition, produces the possibility of
conflict where none need exist.

Drugs?
"Illegal" guns?

Hmph.

[Whiskey Delta]

"I've got a gun, don't shoot" is the last foolish thing this guy did/said in his thankfully short life. Sort of reminds me of a dog that curls his lip up, flattens his ears against his skull, growls and still wags his tail.

I am sure that examining his life history would provide a litany of similar foolish acts and poorly thought out acts. He is the typical moron that lives his life in wanton disregard for the resultant consequences.

He was one of the rare ones to kill himself with his idiocy before he killed someone else.

The fact that this moron's family seems to know him and his intentions so intimately, and don't seem to see his own actions as leading up to his death, pretty much sums up the whole clan's contribution to society. Sadly, they are still here and breeding.

[Philbert]

I'm going to side with the police here. The man could have shown he was not a threat by standing still and placing his hands up. Instead he ran. It's possible that he was just trying to run away, but how was the cop to know that? He could have run to cover and then opened fire.

[JoeWilliams]

Heck, I don't know who to side with from the facts presented in the article. Bad guy had a gun, never drew it. Cop shot fleeing bad guy in the back, but the BGs words may have seemed a threat in the heat of the chase.

This is a case is a poster child for the jury system. Let 12 men, good and true, decide if cop was right or not.

[ungawa]

I'm going to side with ungawa here. The man could have shown he was not a threat by standing still and placing his hands up. Instead he ran. It's possible that he was just trying to run away, but how was ungawa to know that? He could have run to cover and then opened fire.

Edits in bold mine.

Like I always say, police should be held to higher standards for shootings than civilians, not lower standards. That's the way it always was until recent decades.

When I find myself faced with an armed adversary, it will not because I swore to protect the citizenry nor because I volunteered for that honorable task. I will just be looking to save myself from a situation that is not of my making, and I will fail and die because I can’t shoot people in the back. People that actually came after me in the first place, unlike this situation.

[Philbert]

Edits in bold mine.

Like I always say, police should be held to higher standards for shootings than civilians, not lower standards. That's the way it always was until recent decades.

When I find myself faced with an armed adversary, it will not because I swore to protect the citizenry nor because I volunteered for that honorable task. I will just be looking to save myself from a situation that is not of my making, and I will fail and die because I can’t shoot people in the back. People that actually came after me in the first place, unlike this situation.

I don't think it's just a matter of standards. Even if we assume that a citizen could not shoot under the same circumstances (and I'm not saying I agree with that since we don't know the exact circumstances), the situation of an armed BG fleeing a cop and an armed BG fleeing a citizen aren't the same. If you draw on a BG and he runs, you are under no duty to pursue him. A cop has an obligation to pursue the BG, and the BG knows this. Thus the BG has a greater incentive to shoot at the cop than he would to shoot at a citizen.

The law recognizes that an armed BG fleeing a cop still presents a danger that warrants the use of deadly force:

§ 508. Use of force in law enforcement.

(a) Peace officer's use of force in making arrest.--

A peace officer, or any person whom he has summoned or directed to assist him, need not retreat or desist from efforts to make a lawful arrest because of resistance or threatened resistance to the arrest. He is justified in the use of any force which he believes to be necessary to effect the arrest and of any force which he believes to be necessary to defend himself or another from bodily harm while making the arrest. However, he is justified in using deadly force only when he believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or such other person, or when he believes both that:
such force is necessary to prevent the arrest from being defeated by resistance or escape; and
the person to be arrested has committed or attempted a forcible felony or is attempting to escape and possesses a deadly weapon, or otherwise indicates that he will endanger human life or inflict serious bodily injury unless arrested without delay.
A peace officer making an arrest pursuant to an invalid warrant is justified in the use of any force which he would be justified in using if the warrant were valid, unless he knows that the warrant is invalid.

In my opinion, the moral of the story is that you should not run from the police. And if you must run from the police, don't do it while armed. And if you really must run from the police while armed, don't carry in such a way that you need to put your hand on the freaking gun and shout "I've got a gun!" while running from the police.

[Dredly]

#1 You had a weapon illegally in a vehicle with 2 other men who had illegal weapons.

#2 You fled the scene for whatever reason and you were shouting you have a gun

#3 Everyone KNOWS carry a gun at all times without a permit or license to have such a weapon

So basically this idiot tells cops he has a gun, is reaching into his waist band while running to pull it out and the cop shoots him.

Lets also keep in mind that the only person advising that he didn't draw the gun is the cousin, but it clearly states he had his hand on it the whole time and he was yelling about having it... ummm to me that would means you are going to use it.

Here is the easy solution:

Police pull up to the truck you are in, as it is a privilege to drive they are 100% legal in stopping you and checking the drivers ID. At this point you do nothing, if the cop asks if you have weapons you say yes then you surrender the weapons and take your jail time (1 - 2 months most likely).

There, now you don't get shot! See how easy that was?

I also love this part:


About 25 people, including Hayes' family, stood at last night's council meeting as Near East Side activist Barry Edney called on the city to suspend Mayor Michael B. Coleman's summer strike-force initiative, which puts extra police in high-crime areas. Hannah was part of that detail when he shot Hayes.

Lemme get this straight... THE TASK FORCE IS WORKING, it just got 3 illegal weapons off the street, and 2 convicted felons back in jail instead of out on the streets shooting people and you want to stop the initiative because... its working? uhhhh WHAT?!?!?!