Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Norristown, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Question about West Norriton Twp Rules

    I am a relatively new shooter - just about a year now. Last year when I applied for my cc license I was confused about why WN required me to list the model and serial number of my firearm. They would not process the request w/out the info and therefore I would not have the appropriate paperwork to take to the county. I thought there was not supposed to be a gun registry???? Now, I would like to sell that gun - and my question is... do I need to tell the West Norriton PD so that gun infor can be removed from that record? Will I need to provide info on who I sold it to or the FFL I used? Is this done in all Montco twps?

    I try to keep abreast of the laws, but sometimes it seems that what one reads and what is actually happening are two different things unless I am not understanding the process correctly.

    I don't want to cause problems, I just don't want to have any lingering ones.

    Thanks for your insight

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    ..............., Pennsylvania
    (Chester County)
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    Default Re: Question about West Norriton Twp Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackLab5 View Post
    I am a relatively new shooter - just about a year now. Last year when I applied for my cc license I was confused about why WN required me to list the model and serial number of my firearm. They would not process the request w/out the info and therefore I would not have the appropriate paperwork to take to the county. I thought there was not supposed to be a gun registry???? Now, I would like to sell that gun - and my question is... do I need to tell the West Norriton PD so that gun infor can be removed from that record? Will I need to provide info on who I sold it to or the FFL I used? Is this done in all Montco twps?

    I try to keep abreast of the laws, but sometimes it seems that what one reads and what is actually happening are two different things unless I am not understanding the process correctly.

    I don't want to cause problems, I just don't want to have any lingering ones.

    Thanks for your insight
    The Sheriff of Montgomery County has, on his website, a copy of the local police check form. Nowhere on that form does it indicate a requirement to provide any information regarding firearms. It should also be noted that one need not own a firearm or even possess a firearm in order to get a LTCF. If the West Norristown police are insisting on a firearm description I would suggest that you make application directly to the county sheriff and fill out the Sheriff's form for the local police. According to Sheriff's website this would, at most, slightly delay the processing for your LTCF but at least there would be no issue with regards to providing any firearm description.

    I would recommend that you totally avoid given local police any firearm description because it has no statutory basis. Even if you did, there is no requirement for you to notify them of any change of ownership of the "registered" firearm in whatever database they are maintaining.

    Local police form from sheriff:
    http://www.montcopa.org/DocumentCenter/View/3882

    The Local Police Check card is part of our investigation. We suggest that you fill this out
    and have it completed by your local police department to save time (they will either call
    you to pick it up or mail it to us.) Alternatively, you may drop it off to our office with
    your application; however, you may have to wait up to 45 days before you can return for
    your permit. Note: this applies to new applicants only. The Local Police check card is
    only valid for 60 days from date of signature by Police Department
    http://www.montcopa.org/DocumentCenter/View/732
    Last edited by tl_3237; May 4th, 2014 at 11:41 AM.
    IANAL

  3. #3
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    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
    (Philadelphia County)
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    Default Re: Question about West Norriton Twp Rules

    Notwithstanding any section of this chapter to the contrary, nothing in this chapter shall be construed to allow any government or law enforcement agency or any agent thereof to create, maintain or operate any registry of firearm ownership within this Commonwealth. For the purposes of this section only, the term "firearm" shall include any weapon that is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.
    http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/...n-of-firearms/

  4. #4
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    ..............., Pennsylvania
    (Chester County)
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    Default Re: Question about West Norriton Twp Rules

    Unfortunately, by an egregious application of judicial illogic, 18 PA CS 6111.4 has been very narrowly interpreted by our courts, including SCOPA, that a database of firearms which is not total and complete is not proscribed by the above-referenced statute. As such and assuming West Norristown does demand a firearm description on its local police check form, it would not fall under that same statue's prohibitions by the established case law. As such the statue is largely impotent and readily dismissed in any entreaties asserting same.

    It is undisputed that the database at issue is not a registry of ownership, but rather, merely reflects the applications/records 22*22 of sale for handgun purchases that occur in Pennsylvania. The database does not maintain a record of all firearms owned by Pennsylvanians, which would include long guns, or firearms that are owned by Pennsylvanians, but not purchased in the Commonwealth. Additionally, the database of handgun sales does not include handguns that are transferred between spouses, parents and children, and grandparents and grandchildren. See 18 Pa.C.S. 6111(c). Nor is the database a survey of existing ownership. The database maintained by the Commonwealth merely contains information regarding the sales of handguns in the Commonwealth. Such a database does not amount to a "registry of firearm ownership" as prohibited by the Firearms Act.
    ALLEGHENY CTY. SPORTSMEN'S LEAGUE v. Rendell, 860 A. 2d 10 - Pa: Supreme Court 2004
    IANAL

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Question about West Norriton Twp Rules

    The more I hear of the bullsh*t you Pennsylvanians have to put up with, you should hope that some day you move to a one issuing system as in Florida. We have the Department of Agriculture who issues the permit. They are issued promptly without a myriad of differing requirements.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Norristown, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: Question about West Norriton Twp Rules

    Thank you for the info...very enlightening

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    West Montco, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: Question about West Norriton Twp Rules

    I think your friends with my wife from AGaG. you should post this on the montco FB page.
    ....Then Piers Morgan came on and I almost got a concussion from facepalming so hard.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Harrisburg area, Pennsylvania
    (Dauphin County)
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    Default Re: Question about West Norriton Twp Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by LTCcarrier View Post
    The more I hear of the bullsh*t you Pennsylvanians have to put up with, you should hope that some day you move to a one issuing system as in Florida. We have the Department of Agriculture who issues the permit. They are issued promptly without a myriad of differing requirements.
    On the other hand it costs y'all about five times as much.
    I am not a lawyer. Nothing I say or write is legal advice.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    West Montco, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: Question about West Norriton Twp Rules

    Quote Originally Posted by twency View Post
    On the other hand it costs y'all about five times as much.
    and no open carry


    So we should all move to Arizona, Constitutional Carry anyone?
    ....Then Piers Morgan came on and I almost got a concussion from facepalming so hard.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Montco, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Re: Question about West Norriton Twp Rules

    W Norriton goes way above and beyond. Of course, they can ask you nearly anything and if you answer, then they have the info. I feel sure that since they asked, they have somehow tagged it to you, in their own records at least. If you ever have any encounter with them, they will assume you are armed. Not very fair, as they may pull me over, but not know I am armed because I live in another town (my town PD processed my paperwork in a day, no questions asked).

    It is water under the bridge now, you did not know that the Sheriff had made that form optional.

    I would be tempted to contact the PD and tell them you are selling the gun to a local store. Truthfully, you are. See what they say. If they ask ask why you are selling it, tell them you don't like shooting it (or whatever reason you are selling it). If they ask if you are getting another, say "nah, I don't think so". They have no need to know what you have or don't have.

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