ArmsCare or USCCA CCW Self-Defense Insurance

**blueskiesPA** · March 28th, 2014, 07:38 PM

Hello all--

I am sure I am not the only one that receives the emails about firearm self-defense insurance.

What do you guys think? I was looking at the NRA endorsed insurance for $254 a year or USCCA self-defense insurance for $197 a year.

Whether you use a firearm in your home or on the road is this insurance smart to have? I know we have some great lawyers here in PA, I wonder what they think?

Is this insurance necessary?

**Cookster** · March 29th, 2014, 05:54 PM

I am beginning to research this matter myself.

A firearms instructor that I recently met spoke highly of, endorsed and is a subscriber to the "Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, Inc."

www.armedcitizensnetwork.org

Included with your membership $125 (then $85 to renew) includes, among other things:

- defense counsel
- defense counsel hot-line
- defense counsel legal funding (from the 'insurance' you buy, included with membership)
- instructional (six I believe) 'how to' dvd's on way to handle yourself after a self-defense shooting

Rob

**blueskiesPA** · March 30th, 2014, 08:33 AM

Thanks for the link. A lot of choices, still wondering if it is necessary.

I am hoping one of our resident lawyers can give me their professional opinion.

**GunLawyer001** · March 30th, 2014, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by blueskiesPA

Thanks for the link. A lot of choices, still wondering if it is necessary.

I am hoping one of our resident lawyers can give me their professional opinion.

The odds against you ever shooting someone are enormous. Do some research, see how many non-criminals are charged after a defensive shooting in a given year, then see how many people are struck by lightning.

So on the one hand, the risk is pretty low.

On the other, a lot of the legal insurance programs are scams, whether they're for shooting incidents or anything else. Some are just Ponzi schemes, with options to make money if you get others to sign up.

I've heard a lot of complaints about the mainstream legal insurance programs; maybe they can be good if you want a simple will drafted. But you usually get a limited choice of lawyers, and if the lawyer they give you is no good, you don't get a different lawyer.

Lawyers are not fungible, there are good ones and bad ones, and a good tort lawyer could be a terrible criminal defense lawyer. Some lawyers are just good at self-promotion, not so good with winning cases.

I know of at least one shooting defense plan that only reimburses you AFTER you win. That's not when you desperately need help; you need the financial help after you've been pauperized by the bail demands, and then your lawyer demands another $10K or $50K in cash, up front (criminal defense lawyers ALWAYS get paid up front, because criminal defendants are not very good at paying debts, and because once you enter your appearance, it's hard to quit a case.)

So, look hard at the plan. If they help you up front, when you need the help to get that acquittal, then that's good. If they let you find a good lawyer and then they pay that lawyer, that's good. If they offer to supply "a lawyer" when you need one, then it's a crapshoot. The truth is that if you took any random law firm and asked the first lawyer you saw "what's the UFA?", a lot of them wouldn't know.

If you travel around, then your hypothetical case could arise in multiple states, in any county where criminals live. Honestly, in a murder case, you want a defense lawyer with solid ties to that county, someone who knows the judges and the DA's office in that county. Not "a generic associate in a large law firm within driving distance".

You'd probably be better off just putting a few hundred every year into a bank account (a few thousand would be better, and then you'd have a general emergency fund), or getting a rider on your homeowner's insurance to cover criminal defense after a shooting. Or fund an IRA, take the tax penalty if you need to withdraw the money early. Something that allows you to choose which lawyer you hire.

And be really careful about who you shoot. Know the rules on the use of force, and the use of deadly force. If you kill someone for scratching your car, the best lawyer in the world isn't going to save you, most of the time.

**blueskiesPA** · March 30th, 2014, 04:11 PM

Gunlawyer001--

I appreciate your information. I have been getting a ton of emails about insurance and wondered what a firearms lawyer thought about the various plans.

I am going to stay away, I spent the better part of yesterday reading over a few of the insurance companies plan documents and wow you are right.

The way it seems is if you are charged with a crime, they only pay if you win. If you are charged in a civil court then they will cover you up to your coverage option. I have two pages of notes of things like, if this then that, and if you did this, then we do that etc...

One has a board that meets to review your case and if they do not like it you get nothing.

So I am going to stay away. Just wanted to get a professional opinion.

Thanks for the info.

**ungawa** · March 30th, 2014, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by GunLawyer001

The odds against you ever shooting someone are enormous. Do some research, see how many non-criminals are charged after a defensive shooting in a given year, then see how many people are struck by lightning.

So on the one hand, the risk is pretty low.

On the other, a lot of the legal insurance programs are scams, whether they're for shooting incidents or anything else. Some are just Ponzi schemes, with options to make money if you get others to sign up.

I've heard a lot of complaints about the mainstream legal insurance programs; maybe they can be good if you want a simple will drafted. But you usually get a limited choice of lawyers, and if the lawyer they give you is no good, you don't get a different lawyer.

Lawyers are not fungible, there are good ones and bad ones, and a good tort lawyer could be a terrible criminal defense lawyer. Some lawyers are just good at self-promotion, not so good with winning cases.

I know of at least one shooting defense plan that only reimburses you AFTER you win. That's not when you desperately need help; you need the financial help after you've been pauperized by the bail demands, and then your lawyer demands another $10K or $50K in cash, up front (criminal defense lawyers ALWAYS get paid up front, because criminal defendants are not very good at paying debts, and because once you enter your appearance, it's hard to quit a case.)

So, look hard at the plan. If they help you up front, when you need the help to get that acquittal, then that's good. If they let you find a good lawyer and then they pay that lawyer, that's good. If they offer to supply "a lawyer" when you need one, then it's a crapshoot. The truth is that if you took any random law firm and asked the first lawyer you saw "what's the UFA?", a lot of them wouldn't know.

If you travel around, then your hypothetical case could arise in multiple states, in any county where criminals live. Honestly, in a murder case, you want a defense lawyer with solid ties to that county, someone who knows the judges and the DA's office in that county. Not "a generic associate in a large law firm within driving distance".

You'd probably be better off just putting a few hundred every year into a bank account (a few thousand would be better, and then you'd have a general emergency fund), or getting a rider on your homeowner's insurance to cover criminal defense after a shooting. Or fund an IRA, take the tax penalty if you need to withdraw the money early. Something that allows you to choose which lawyer you hire.

And be really careful about who you shoot. Know the rules on the use of force, and the use of deadly force. If you kill someone for scratching your car, the best lawyer in the world isn't going to save you, most of the time.

The only thing as rare as legal costs after a justifiable shooting is insurance actually doing you harm. Both happen, but the latter is much less common.

This comes down to dollars and cents. This seems really expensive. I only pay about 3x that to insure my house. And there is somebody on the other end that expects me to pay them several hundreds of thousands of dollars for it. And the chances of it burning down are much higher than the chances of me shooting somebody in self defense.

Lawyers take cases on contingency all the time. I've had lawyers rack up 10s of thousands of dollars on my behalf and get only $800 in expenses and filing fees out of me before realizing they would never see a dime. I would think that if you own anything at all, a lawyer would probably be willing to represent you with some cash up front. I would think that if there is an insurance policy that will pay him if he wins, what he will need up front to take the case will be less. Shit, like I said, lawyers take cases that pay nothing unless they win all the time.

- "You say it's going to cost at least $50K, I can scrape up $10K, will you do it?"

or

- "You say it's going to cost at least $50K, I can scrape up $10K, but I have an insurance policy that covers $1 million if we win, will you do it?"

**thundrr1** · March 31st, 2014, 08:50 AM

Think about how a DA could twist the fact that you had an insurance policy "just in case you killed someone". OMG,,,,,,, how wrong could that go????? The jury could really be swayed by that one factor alone.

**ursinuspip** · March 31st, 2014, 09:55 AM

IANAL, and will leave the legal end to the experts, but from insurance standpoint I always want to talk to people who have had claims paid by the company and see how it went.I have a strong suspicion that most of these companies have never paid a claim, and if one of their clients ever files a claim and meets all the rules of the policies, the company will fold.

I have never found someone recommending one of these policies that can give me the name of someone with a claim paid.