Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Reloading ammo for self-defense

    Sorry if this question has been asked before...Probably lots of times. What, if any, are the legal concerns about using my own reloaded ammunition for self-defense?

    Is there a legal precedent? Is there advice from any good attorneys about the pros and/or cons of carrying reloaded ammo?

    I have read the discussions/arguments made by some that in a court case, one's use of reloaded ammo could be used to argue that there was an intent to cause harm or kill. For someone like me who shoots and reloads for recreation all the time, using reloaded ammo is a common practice...no malice or ill-intent.

    Just curious what the learned JD holders on the forum have to say about this.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Reloading ammo for self-defense

    Im not a lawyer or a subject matter expert so I'll link you to a reply by Mas Ayoob over at glocktalk for his stance.

    http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...hlight=Reloads

    The expert's opinion is to not do it.

    I believe that 1) you'll have the prosecution inevitably say you were so insane you wanted to manufacture your own extra deadly ammo . 2) As Mas indicates in that post it would be hard for a jury to believe your manufacturing and record keeping practices would be up to speed with the likes of Speer, Winchester, etc.

    I think if one is insistent on carrying custom reloads they should definitely keep a sample of the carried lot for possible forensics testing.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Reloading ammo for self-defense

    In case you don't have a glocktalk account or can't access the link:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mas Ayoob
    Your question is one of the most contentious on the gun boards. Personally, I would recommend strongly against using handloads for defensive purposes. No one has yet found a case where the courts accepted the defendant's word or records as to what was in the gun, when gunshot residue testing became necessary to determine a disputed distance of the shot in question. Seen that in criminal court, so it's not just a civil court thing.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Reloading ammo for self-defense

    The only difference between buying and reloading your self-defense ammunition, is that you are paying someone else to load it.

    How many people keep the lot number from the box of factory ammo they bought? How are they going to prove anything? I'm willing to bet that very few people keep such records. And because very few people keep that information, then why aren't people prosecuted for not being able to fully document their carry ammo?

    Ayoob mentions one case where the guy made a claim in a shooting, his wife or girlfriend I think, but his story stunk. Hence the gun shot residue claim. Their theory was different grains of powder would give different results in a gun shot residue test. As far as I know this is the one and only case where handloaded ammunition was mentioned.

    Well hell your Honor, this is my "defensive handloaded ammunition"; Bullet "X", with "X" grains of "X" powder in "X" cases with "X" primers. Hey, I even ran it through a chrono for "X" velocity. How is that any different that what some factory tech will tell you?

    Saying you're a "killer" because you handloaded your own ammunition is like saying you're a killer because you make knives and ended up using one to defend yourself.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Reloading ammo for self-defense

    I have heard this several times. And all from someone who knows someone, who has a friend who this happened to.

    I will say it now. I reload my defense ammo to expand as much as possible, and do as much damage as possible.

    I know that could be used against me. But here is my defense. If I ever have to defend myself, I want the threat stopped in as few shots as possible. Do I want to make ammo that is more destructive than I can buy on the shelves? You are damn straight I do.
    I'm so fast, I can bump fire a bolt action.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Reloading ammo for self-defense

    Quote Originally Posted by jthrelf View Post
    In case you don't have a glocktalk account or can't access the link:

    Originally Posted by Mas Ayoob
    Your question is one of the most contentious on the gun boards. Personally, I would recommend strongly against using handloads for defensive purposes. No one has yet found a case where the courts accepted the defendant's word or records as to what was in the gun, when gunshot residue testing became necessary to determine a disputed distance of the shot in question. Seen that in criminal court, so it's not just a civil court thing.
    Beat me to it.

    But let me elaborate a little. Ballistic test is Ayoob's biggest concern. That's why residue pattern came up. According to him, quality factory made ammo will be consistent during the test. While no one will be able to reasonably prove, that the specs of reloaded round in question exactly matched those, that were fired during the test. Assuming, that gun owner won't be lousy and his powder load for every round will be exactly the same.
    Je suis déplorable

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Reloading ammo for self-defense

    I haven't seen anything where reloaded ammo was used to convict somebody who otherwise lawfully able to claim self defense. In a case where you have to use your firearm, the much more important circumstances is if you were in fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury (this varies by state, with different duties to retreat). The type of ammo you use shouldn't have any impact on your self defense claim.

    That being said there are two circumstances where I can imagine potential issues:

    1. The shot is contested, and the powder charge in your round is significantly different than other common factory self defense ammo. Traditional ballistics tests might draw different conclusions if they don't know the exact makeup of your round. Of course you should be able to introduce you ammo as evidence so an accurate conclusion should be drawn.

    2. The ammo is loaded with a bullet that is illegal in the jurisdiction (IE handloaded hollow points will get you in just as much trouble as factory hollow points in NJ, not to mention the other gun charges there).

    Even though I reload, I still like using good factory self defense ammo in my carry guns. It's merely personal preference, and not necessarily out of fear of legal repercussions.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Reloading ammo for self-defense

    all this talk of not using your own load is just that talk. if it is a good shoot you will nothing to worry about. back in the old days a lot of small town p.d carried reloads. I knew two md. state troopers that loaded their own.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Reloading ammo for self-defense

    One of the moderators on The Firing Line forum is an attorney, and he has posted on this topic extensively. The real problem revolves around evidence. If you shoot factory ammo, a ballistics laboratory can test ammo from the same batch or a similar batch and have a measure of confidence that the test results are close to the performance of the ammo you fired in "the incident."

    Not so with handloads. And with handloads, you can't introduce your reloading notes as proof/evidence of what was in your gun, because your notes are ... well, they're YOUR notes. They are not unbiased, third party documentation.

    Bottom line, he thinks it's a bad idea to carry handloads for self defense.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Reloading ammo for self-defense

    There has only been maybe a very few incidences where handloaded ammo was an issue.

    First and foremost, the justification is what matters most. If the shot was legal, it doesn't really matter what you shot him with, or whatever else you used: flame thrower, truck bumper, bare fists, knife, baseball bat, etc, etc. If the use of force/deadly force was legal, then it never gets to what you used. However, there has been a few odd-ball events that went against logic. But in this day and age of Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground, the tool really doesn't matter, only the justification does.

    And if by chance your loads are called into question and they need to replicate events - every handloader I've ever known kept records as to what was loaded with what. Besides, that theory about the ballistics is hogwash.. ...your statement about your loads is as admissible as Winchester's load data.

    More people have been run through the wringer for using factory ammo than reloads. You should worry more about the shot being legal and the ammo functioning properly than legalities of reloads.
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