Legal Question

[wakefield724]

I buy storage lockers and other things where I sell items for profit for a second job. I have recently acquired a few handguns made in the last 10 years. I am a law abiding responsible citizen with License to carry and I coach children in sports and I do not want to get into any legal trouble in any way. Is there a way to register unregistered handguns in PA?? I carry for my job so I do not want to carry an unregistered weapon if I can get into legal trouble if I need to use it.

What would ya'll do? What are the laws when it comes to this?

[tl_3237]

An analogous situation (house purchase) is discussed here;
http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/172...d-handgun.html

Quoting from that thread:

There's no registration, but there is the Record of Sale Database. To link that gun to your name, you need to go through an FFL who's willing to transfer it "from you" "to you". Your name can go into his bound book as both the transferor and the transferee. A PICS check will be done, and you won't get the gun unless you pass.

Not all gun shops will do this, but it's perfectly legal, and the only legal way to do this (unless you give it to your parent, child, grandchild or grandparent, and they then transfer it to you; but I'd avoid that, it's messy.)

Once you transfer it to yourself, the dealer will send the Record of Sale Form to the State Police, and that gun will be linked to you in their often-misused Database. If any cop checks the gun, he's more likely to hand it back to you if the Database confirms ownership. Not the way it should be, but that's the way it is.

If it's listed as stolen, the transfer helps you a little, because criminals tend not to put in the effort to get into the Database.

[knight0334]

I'd seriously consider taking GunLawyer001's advice as tl_3237 quoted above.

You did acquire them legally, and the prior owner did lose them legally by defaulting on a storage locker bill. However that doesn't mean you wont have them confiscated by a LEO because your name doesn't match the last recorded owner.

With them in your name you wouldn't have any worries.

[esh21167]

I read the noted thread and it seemed to say that the recipient doesn't need an FFL to receive a handgun, but the one 'transferring' ownership does? That seems to say the the FFL transfer is not required for the receiver of the handgun. Then why the PICS check?

Receiving the handguns 'legally' as far as them being property purchased because they were in the storage unit seems different to me than 'legally' receiving a handgun. Under what other conditions, outside of transfer between immediate family members, trusts, or C&R, allows someone to receive a handgun without a PICS check?

[tl_3237]

I read the noted thread and it seemed to say that the recipient doesn't need an FFL to receive a handgun, but the one 'transferring' ownership does? That seems to say the the FFL transfer is not required for the receiver of the handgun. Then why the PICS check?

Receiving the handguns 'legally' as far as them being property purchased because they were in the storage unit seems different to me than 'legally' receiving a handgun. Under what other conditions, outside of transfer between immediate family members, trusts, or C&R, allows someone to receive a handgun without a PICS check?

The OP, having purchased the firearms as abandoned property, received them legally. He was inquiring as to the desirability and process for getting them recorded in his own name to avoid hassles, particularly since he wanted to use them as 'carry' pieces. Seeking FFL involvement, with the attendant PICS check of the transferee (receiver), is incumbent on the transferor (seller/giftor) - not the transferee - under 18 Pa CS 6111(c). In the instant case there is no transferor since the property was abandoned.

Exempt from FFL involvement in transfer of handguns, assuming all principals are Pa residents and the transfer occurs in Pa, are between spouses and within 2 levels of ascendancy/decendancy (including adoptives) or intrastate/interstate estate distributions. I'm dubious as to why trusts and C&R would be exempt in Pa unless the C&R is classified as an antique pre-1898 handgun or any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock or percussion cap type of ignition system.

[streaker69]

I wonder what would happen if the locker owner that lost them then reports them stolen?

[tl_3237]

I wonder what would happen if the locker owner that lost them then reports them stolen?

I suspect that, pursuant to the rental agreement he signed with the storage company, he would be SOL. He could report any of his 'lost' (abandoned) property stolen and it could make for some interesting LE gyrations but, in the final analysis, he'd lose.

[GunLawyer001]

It actually gets a little complicated where the guns were part of the collateral for payment of storage fees; it's illegal to use guns for collateral.

Still, you acquired them by operation of law, since the law allows the sale of stored items. Except for the "collateral" issue above. It's substantively different than just walking away from a gun in a house you sold.

I wouldn't carry such a gun, it would be potentially difficult to prove ownership, if anyone made an issue of the facts (if they knew them). But getting it linked via the Record of Sale Database would provide some real protection from claims that it was stolen, and could assist after a seizure (gins are seized temporarily every day, usually in the context of domestic squabbles and/or PFA's.)

Worst case, the gun is seized as contraband, which puts you in the same position as if you turned it in. If you did the ROS paperwork and are not a prohibited person, keeping it in the house is pretty safe. However, using it for your defensive piece jeopardizes some of your advantages under the Stand Your Ground provisions of PA law.

[esh21167]

I'm dubious as to why trusts and C&R would be exempt in Pa unless the C&R is classified as an antique pre-1898 handgun or any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock or percussion cap type of ignition system.

I wasn't entirely sure about the C&R dating and trust specifics, but what you've stated makes sense along the lines I was thinking. Aren't trusts ways to have certain arms passed to relatives without an FFL transfer. Apology in advance if that's incorrect. Regardless, thanks for some clarification.

I wouldn't carry such a gun, it would be potentially difficult to prove ownership, if anyone made an issue of the facts (if they knew them). But getting it linked via the Record of Sale Database would provide some real protection from claims that it was stolen, and could assist after a seizure (gins are seized temporarily every day, usually in the context of domestic squabbles and/or PFA's.)

Worst case, the gun is seized as contraband, which puts you in the same position as if you turned it in. If you did the ROS paperwork and are not a prohibited person, keeping it in the house is pretty safe. However, using it for your defensive piece jeopardizes some of your advantages under the Stand Your Ground provisions of PA law.

Here's where I have trouble wrapping my head around the FFL/PICS check. In principle, I can comprehend that the onus is on the transferrer, so if person A sells a handgun to person B without an FFL/PICS, A has committed a crime, but B has not? And as you say, ownership is at the least suspect. Is the only problem B would encounter be confiscation since ownership can't be proven? No other consequences? This may only be one issue, but what if the gun was reported stolen or used in a crime previously? Seems that could certainly put the possessor in some deep trouble.

[GunLawyer001]

. . . .


Here's where I have trouble wrapping my head around the FFL/PICS check. In principle, I can comprehend that the onus is on the transferrer, so if person A sells a handgun to person B without an FFL/PICS, A has committed a crime, but B has not? And as you say, ownership is at the least suspect. Is the only problem B would encounter be confiscation since ownership can't be proven? No other consequences? This may only be one issue, but what if the gun was reported stolen or used in a crime previously? Seems that could certainly put the possessor in some deep trouble.

An illegally transferred gun is contraband, even where the recipient can't be prosecuted. If the cops find out, they can seize it and you don't get it back, it gets forfeited.

A gun that was reported stolen can be taken from you and you won't get compensation, but they have to prove that you knew or should have known that it was possibly stolen. "I found it in a box of stuff" is not the best defense, but if you can prove the auction and send them a step back, that will take the heat off of you.

If ballistics tests link the gun to a crime, they have to prove that you possessed the gun at the time of the crime.