negative encounter- lower pottsgrove police

[Schiery24]

Tonight I was exiting the liquor store with a friend when an officer from lower pottsgrove police department ask for my "concealed carry permit". I did comply as I did not want to argue over the correct terms and actually having a LTCF. Also, i was carrying a m&p 9mm. Apparently my firearm was not covered completley which is against pa law. I told the officer that PA is an open carry state and he responded " I know that PA is an open carry state! Don't argue the laws with me!" He then told m e that I need to cover up my firearm. I explained that he was not making sense and he got more aggitttated. I the left the "conversation" and called the lower pottsvrove police dept and asked for a supervisor. I explained my situation and that I was calling to clarify some facts within state law. The officer told me that I either need to carry open or concealed, not in between. I then asked him to cite the law/statute for me and he explained that he could not. I assured IBM lotus that there is nothing about carrying "in between" in the statutes and he became more aggravated. He then began asking me questions on carry laws which I answered correctly and he had nothing to say about it. The officer then explained that I had to show him my "ccw" because it says so it the crimes code. I explained that I did show him without question because I know the law. I also explained that it was not the reason I called. We debated more on his fake firearm laws and I then asked if he was the sergeant. He told me he was and that he was the one actually in the encounter. (So what was the point of calling). He said that I seem to know the firearm codes so I must be studting criminal justice (which I did) and that I should have know that his stripe meant he was sergeant. He went into a whole rant about rank until I brougbt him back on topic about my "in between" concealed firearm. He then asked if he ordered that I concealed my firearm. I said yes. He said no he didn't. I explained that he told me I need to cover up my firearm. He said that was not an order but a suggestion and that an order would have been taking my firearm from me. I said that would have been and action and illegal seizure, not an order. I told him that an order is telling me I need to do something. All in all this sergeant makes his own rules that male no sense. He also assured me that his chief would take hisnside when I said i would conact him Comment with qustions or suggestions please. Ibdid leave some parts out. (Encounter was long and pointless)el

[Mongo85]

Did you happen to record the event? You already know that he's going to lie out his ass and paint you to be some arrogant punk who was terrorizing the locals with your firearm clearly visible, becoming uppity because he "politely" asked you to conceal, etc. and it's pretty much gonna be your word against his. That and with all the shit that's been going on in that hellhole of a town, he probably thought you were one of the ghetto boys out for mayhem and carnage.

Definitely a shitty encounter, but that's why you need a voice recorder or video of any encounter. Until cops actually enforce the LAW and not their INTERPRETATION of it, this is one of the few ways we have to hold them accountable. Cameras and recorders don't lie; it's the best unbiased witness you can have.

[GunLawyer001]

Tonight I was exiting the liquor store with a friend when an officer from lower pottsgrove police department ask for my "concealed carry permit". . . . . The officer then explained that I had to show him my "ccw" because it says so it the crimes code... .

Actually, when open carrying on foot, you have no obligation to show your LTCF, outside of Philadelphia(which has a separate state law regarding all possession of guns on the streets or public property):

§ 6122. Proof of license and exception

(a) General rule.--When carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle, an individual licensed to carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to produce such license either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.

(b) Exception.--. . .

Of course, if you stand your ground, the encounter may go sideways, depending on just how lawless that particular cop is. But a plainly visible gun isn't concealed, and if he saw you walking out of a store, he doesn't yet have proof that you are carrying in a vehicle (which is why the smart cops wait for you to get in your car, and THEN stop you.)

[Curmudgeon]

I think I would follow up with the chief anyway, if for no other reason than to see how far up this crap goes.

[Sgt.K]

I think I would follow up with the chief anyway, if for no other reason than to see how far up this crap goes.

I agree.

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...ng-needed.html

[BimmerJon]

OP:

I suggest recording every encounter with police officers during the performance of their duties in public.

This officer is a threat to any and every citizen he comes in contact with.
Obviously a liar, manipulator and oppressor. I figure he'd treat any situation with the same ignorance and bullying, not just a "firearms" call.

Please post his name, rank and police department so he is not kept anonymous.
Please follow up with official complaints all the way up the ranks

Thank you

[jake99]

I wonder if it makes sense to do any arguing 'on the scene'?

[chivvalry]

I wonder if it makes sense to do any arguing 'on the scene'?

Not unless you want to get arrested, beaten, or shot. I would be very cautious about arguing with cops during an on street encounter.

Calm stating of facts about the law and clearly establishing if you are being detained or if the "suggestion" a cop makes is an order however are reasonable.

"Am I being detained?"
"Am I free to go?"
"Is that an order?"

If a cop orders you to do something you probably should... if he doesn't have a legal right to order you to do what he just did then you can state that you are complying under protest.

"Sir, I will comply with your order under protest but you are violating my rights and breaking the law."

[TaePo]

The chief may very well take his side but the law is on your side. The courts would likely rule in your favor which is what really counts, anyway.

The police are to enforce the law not their opinions or misunderstandings; that is how they get into trouble with the public and the courts, should it go that far.

Sounds like somebody trying to defend an indefensible position. I say ignore him and let him save face regarding making a case out of it. I would still seek to clarify with the chief via letter, however, or even in person if you would like and the if the chief is amenable to it. Also, the mayor is the executive in charge of municipal police forces just as the President of the US is commander-in-chief of the military.

BTW, I am not well acquainted with police rank but I thought it went something like this (a more concise form of military ranks):

Slick Sleeve (Rookie / Officer)
Single Stripe (Officer)
Double Stripe (Corporal)
Triple Stripe (Sergeant)
Single Bar (Lieutenant)
Double Bar (Captain)
Gold Oakleaf (Major)
Silver Eagle (Colonel)
Star(s) (Commandant)

Different departments may have differing levels depending on size. In PA, the State Troopers would be called Troopers rather than Officers but terms are interchangeable. (Officers meaning officers of the law, not commissioned like in the military)

If any current/former police officers or troopers would like to chime in to clarify, I would like to know.

OASN: A lot of people don't know that a military commissioned officer can resign a commission whereas non-commissioned (Enlisted above Private/Airman/Seaman ranks) cannot.

[bigandy1966]

Did the Governor rescind the State of Emergency for the cold weather? If not then yes you must produce a LTCF, even if the police officer does not know there is a SOE in effect, he will lie about it later.

Everyone give them a call! Send them copies of State Constitution, MOPTEC and firearm Statutes!!