MAY or SHALL issue for PA???

[twency]

When in doubt, refer to the actual statute:



Arguably, the character clause above in (i) can be applied capriciously but the statute provides for an affirmative duty on the sheriff to justify the invoking of that clause and, furthermore, a court review process to adjudge its validity.

I get what you're saying, but have to agree with others who note that the subjective nature of the C&R clause makes PA de facto less than "shall issue". Sure, the sheriff has an affirmative duty to issue, but only when he (in his sole opinion unless further appealed) decides the applicant is not "likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety".

Personally I think a state is only truly "shall issue" if the license requirements are entirely objective (no felonies, no involuntary commitments, whatever). Otherwise it's "shall issue if someone feels like it".

PA sort of falls into its own category with no common name. I suggest "should issue" for want of a better term.

All that said, my position is that the LTCF system should be abolished as an affront to liberty. "Shall not be questioned."

[Shisno]

So far the only posts ive seen were people have been denied on the character clause is when they have done some thing stupid in their past, so i don't see how that effectively makes PA May issue. Now if they try and use the character clause one someone with a completely clean history then i could see how you could say that.

Do you count unpaid parking tickets as "stupid"? Philadelphia has routinely used that and other pathetic excuses to deny people their LTCF based on the character clause. The door is there for other sheriffs to use that same tactic if an anti gun sheriff were elected. Just because they aren't right now doesn't mean we should sweep the problem under the rug and wait until it manifests in other counties.

[knight0334]

I agree, and I respectfully submit that the use of the word "shall" in one clause of the statute does not make PA a shall issue state. Look at what the statute says:


Subjective ... subjective ... subjective

872,277 licensees..

That character clause is denying so many people that we're only in 2nd place nationally for number of active licenses. In 2012 there were 245444 LTCF's issued, which was a 46% increase over 2011.

Just image if we were like Texas, that has 26000000 residents versus our measly 13000000 and no character clause in the law.. ....we'd have, ...oh wait, we'd only have about 600000 licensees.

Somehow, with half as many residents, and a character clause, we have almost half-again more licensees than Texas. Our character clause is sooooo abused that we gained licensees over a state the has legal and number of resident superiority.

[/sarcasm]

Now don't get me wrong, a single frivolous denial by an issuing agent is wrong. But the statistics aren't there to say it is rampantly abused. If it was totally being abused, Philly would deny everyone who applied.

[Greywolf]

Texas is not a fair comparison.

To obtain a license in Pennsylvania, you fill out an application and pay $20. (And now you have your photograph taken.)

Until last year, to get a carry license for Texas (concealed ONLY, no open carry even with a license) you had to take a TWO-DAY class, then you had to undergo and pass a qualifying course of fire that's roughly equivalent to a great many police departments' qualifying courses of fire around the country, THEN you submit an application with a fee of $140, AND THEN you have to schedule an appointment with a company named MorphoTrust USA (which I guess does electronic fingerprints.

I believe in the most recent legislative session Texas finally reduced the duration of the required class from two days to one day. You still have to take the class, from an approved instructor and pass the qualifying course of fire, and pay the instructor, before you can even submit an application.

That two-day class was expensive, and a deal-breaker for a lot of people who would OTHERWISE have probably obtained a license. Texas is very different from Pennsylvania.

[Curmudgeon]

872,277 licensees..

That character clause is denying so many people that we're only in 2nd place nationally for number of active licenses. In 2012 there were 245444 LTCF's issued, which was a 46% increase over 2011.

Just image if we were like Texas, that has 26000000 residents versus our measly 13000000 and no character clause in the law.. ....we'd have, ...oh wait, we'd only have about 600000 licensees.

Somehow, with half as many residents, and a character clause, we have almost half-again more licensees than Texas. Our character clause is sooooo abused that we gained licensees over a state the has legal and number of resident superiority.

[/sarcasm]

Now don't get me wrong, a single frivolous denial by an issuing agent is wrong. But the statistics are there to say it is rampantly abused. If it was totally being abused, Philly would deny everyone who applied.

^This. While I'm no fan of the Character and Reputation issue, I'm also not sure it's abused very often at all.

Anyway, look at it this way. According the recent FBI statistics, and I'm trying to recall this right off the top of my head, but I believe the official count is that there are roughly 8 million carry licenses/permits issued throughout the US, and approximately 800,000 of those are PA LTCFs.

Do the math. About 10% of all the carry permits in America belong to PA alone. See that? One out of every 10. Right here.

So, yeah. As far as I'm concerned, we're SHALL issue.

I get that there are things we'd like to change, and I'm all for it, but having spent the first 49 years of my life in Maryland, when it comes to the Second Amendment I'm damn proud to be living in Pennsylvania.

Damn proud.
.

[jerkin]

I'm a bit surprised that some members here don't think this is a problem, especially people in this particular thread since most of you have been here as long as I have. The idiot in Beaver County denies anyone that has any mark on their record, if you can't get it expunged you don't get your license, period. I believe he's being sued for it. Philly denies anyone for any reason they can come up with, parking tickets, arrests that had no convictions, etc. Look at what happened to Rotz and shefearsnothing.

I can't think of one single reason to have the character clause. The legislature spelled out what crimes constitute denying someones right to bear arms (personally I think those are bullshit also) and that should be it. There is no reason to leave it up to the judgement of one man. If they feel that strongly about you not having a license then they should be the ones that have to take you to Court to stop you from getting one. If they lose then they repay your costs including all lawyer fees and time off work out of their budget for the next year. Not "a judge may allow recovery of certain fees", your lawyer submits his bill directly to them, if they don't pay it within 30 days they are fined $1000. Same thing with your time off work. Watch how fast that shit stops.

[CartBone69]

Do you count unpaid parking tickets as "stupid"? Philadelphia has routinely used that and other pathetic excuses to deny people their LTCF based on the character clause. The door is there for other sheriffs to use that same tactic if an anti gun sheriff were elected. Just because they aren't right now doesn't mean we should sweep the problem under the rug and wait until it manifests in other counties.

I've had a few parking tickets in my past and all you have to do is make a check out and send it in to pay them, how hard is that? Do i agree with using that as an excuse? Not at all but do i feel sorry for the people that it happens to? Not at all, because it is under the persons control, because 1. don't park some where you shouldn't, 2. If you do park somewhere you shouldn't and get a ticket pay the ticket. 3. Don't loan your car to someone that you cant trust not to get a parking ticket. (I learned #3 after watching parking wars and all of the people that would use that excuse) Problem solved.

[press1280]

I'd look at it this way:

The character clause sort of operates as inversely as "showing of need" does in NY/NJ. "showing of need" requires the applicant to show a set of extraordinary circumstances to warrant the issue of a carry permit; character clause requires the government to show extraordinary circumstances under which a permit shouldn't be issued. These are both exclusive of the statutory requirements-a felon is excluded whether he has a "showing of need" or not.
It's not may-issue IMO, however they can deny you for many different undefined reasons. However, the burden is on them, this is most likely rare.
I think that's part of the reason the AG doesn't like the FL permit, because there's no gray area. You're qualified or you're not.

[Greywolf]

However, the burden is on them, this is most likely rare.

How is the burden on "them"? There are no criteria enumerated in the character clause. A sheriff can use just about anything to justify refusing to issue. Maybe you spoke too loudly or too long at the Board of Education meeting last year and someone didn't like what you said. Maybe you were seen jaywalking. Parking tickets? Oh, yeah -- not paying a parking ticket is certainly a valid reason to deprive someone of his/her Second Amendment right of self defense ... NOT.

The sheriff doesn't have any burden of proving anything to anyone -- it's entirely left to his discretion -- BY STATUTE.

Sorry, but as long as the door is open to the use of subjective criteria, PA is not shall issue. If one sheriff can deny for things that the sheriff in the next county can ignore, the state does not have a "level playing field."

[OwnTheRide]

So far the only posts ive seen were people have been denied on the character clause is when they have done some thing stupid in their past, so i don't see how that effectively makes PA May issue. Now if they try and use the character clause one someone with a completely clean history then i could see how you could say that.

Don't forget about refusal to accept applications of non-residents. If that ain't may-issue, then I don't know what is.

I give it less than one year before we start seeing this happen to residents.