long arms transfers @ ffl?

[ruggerio]

why do so many insist upon this?

proper id, a bill of sale including a prohibited person clause for the buyer is more then enough to cover ones ass but i see many who insist upon the ffl.

i dont get it and i understand its the sellers decision/perrogative but it seems to me that it plays into the hands of the likes of the atf/goverment.

is it something i am missing or ignorant of that motivates folks to insist on a ffl for the sale of a rifle or shotgun?

[thebearpack]

It's strictly a CYA thing. Some sellers just want peace of mind that the buyer isn't prohibited. Personally, since I can show a valid LTCF, C&R and PA DL, the seller can be reasonably sure I'm not prohibited. So when I see the "must be transferred at an FFL" thing I will not even consider buying the item.

[Fastball]

I'm a bit curious about this myself.

Say for example you bought the long gun new and it was registered with the State to you. Few years down the road, you sell it to a "friend of a friend" at work or something. He seems okay and your buddy vouches for him and maybe he even has an LTCF.

Heck, maybe your "friend of friend" sells it, then he sells it and so on and so on. Down the line they probably won't be as concerned as you were if the dude they're selling it to is legit. They just need some funds.

Then suddenly the long gun is involved in something nasty and the next thing you know you have PSP beating on your door or maybe even the Feds, wanting to know where's this rifle that's registered to you and they want to know why your long gun was found on the floor of a multiple homicide or at a drive by shooting.

Granted this one of the worst case scenerios, but personally that's more trouble than I want to be involved in!

[thebearpack]

Technically, there is no registry in PA even though we know that's BS. But the short answer to your question is that if you're concerned, you can have the buyer sign a bill of sale such as the one listed for free on PAFOA0. Then if anyone ever did come knocking at your door you could produce the BOS and provide the buyer's contact info. Personally I might balk at that as a buyer but would be more open to it than incurring the unnecessary hassle and expense of using an FFL. The only time I ask for ID from a long gun buyer is if the firearm is in my C&R bound book and I have to record the disposition.

[Xringshooter]

I'm a bit curious about this myself.

Say for example you bought the long gun new and it was registered with the State to you. Few years down the road, you sell it to a "friend of a friend" at work or something. He seems okay and your buddy vouches for him and maybe he even has an LTCF.

Heck, maybe your "friend of friend" sells it, then he sells it and so on and so on. Down the line they probably won't be as concerned as you were if the dude they're selling it to is legit. They just need some funds.

Then suddenly the long gun is involved in something nasty and the next thing you know you have PSP beating on your door or maybe even the Feds, wanting to know where's this rifle that's registered to you and they want to know why your long gun was found on the floor of a multiple homicide or at a drive by shooting.

Granted this one of the worst case scenerios, but personally that's more trouble than I want to be involved in!

BTW, there is no registration of guns in PA. The PSP does keep a database of handguns, SBRs and SBSs sold or transferred. If you lived outside of PA and brought a handgun when you moved here, you are under no obligation to tell anyone.

Now, speaking off your scenerio. Well, it doesn't quite happen this way. I'll explain.

If you buy a long arm at a dealer you will fill out a BATFE Form 4473 and undergo the background check. The background check has no idea what you are buying. The only place you name is associated with that rifle or shotgun is on the 4473 which stays with the FFL unless he goes out of business and then his records get shipped to a BATFE warehouse in VA (IIRC).

If you sell it to another PA resident, no paperwork is required. If he then sells it to another PA resident (or if he moves out of state and then sells it), again, there is no paperwork.

Ok, now something happens and it is used in a crime. The police recover the gun. They then start a trace on the gun and go to the manufacturer and ask who they sold it to. They then go to that wholesaler and ask who they sold it to. They then go to the retailer and ask to see their bound book to see who it was sold to. It has your name as the buyer. They come to you and ask about the gun. You tell them that you sold it (either you name who you sold it to, or don't know the name because you sold it at a garage sale, etc.) That's where the trace stops. You have done nothing illegal and the police can't charge you with anything unless they have some other evidence that suggests that you are involved.

So even if someone wants to go through a FFL to do a FTF for the long arm, the information on who bought what never goes to the state, it stays with the FFL. Oh, and after a certain time period, about 20-25 years, the FFL can destroy the old records if he so chooses.

[Fastball]

Okay cool! Thanks for the clarification.

That being said, I guarantee you if I do sell a long gun, I will get a name, with a copy their ID, and a bill of sale to keep in my records.

Although "Da' Man" can't do anything to me legally, that does not mean they can't ream me a new one for 5 hrs or until they get bored. Again, just more trouble than I need to go thru. CYA

[mpi]

if somebody insists on "transferring" a longarm through an ffl, i put my money back in my pocket and leave! i also absolutely will not give you a copy of my id. I'll show it to you, but no copy!

[Fastball]

And that's absolutely with in your right, sir.

Just like me telling someone that says that, to take a hike. I would be the one calling off the deal, not the potential buyer.

I think someone denying me that intel to protect myself would be up to something shady. Exactly what I'm trying to avoid.

[ruggerio]

Technically, there is no registry in PA even though we know that's BS. But the short answer to your question is that if you're concerned, you can have the buyer sign a bill of sale such as the one listed for free on PAFOA0. Then if anyone ever did come knocking at your door you could produce the BOS and provide the buyer's contact info. Personally I might balk at that as a buyer but would be more open to it than incurring the unnecessary hassle and expense of using an FFL. The only time I ask for ID from a long gun buyer is if the firearm is in my C&R bound book and I have to record the disposition.

i myself have added the requisite that the buyer sign off as "a non prohibited person at the time of sale"

[Tech]

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