Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Questions about PA possession/purchase (non resident property owner)

    I have a situation, and I am sure others are in the same boat.

    I own two properties, one in NJ and one in PA. I stay in PA on the weekends, and in NJ during the week. I am a valid FID holder in NJ, in good standing, and do own firearms right now.

    Here are the questions I can't really seem to get clear answers on.

    1) Can I bring my handguns to my residence in PA legally, or do I need to register with PA to have them in my possession in my residence?

    2) I know I can purchase long guns, but can I purchase a handgun in PA while still owning my NJ residence?

    I have been told everything from a utility bill/tax bill to prove ownership of property to "it can't be done without a state ID card".

    I asked about a state issued ID, but I can not get one without releasing my NJ DL. It seems very confusing, but I simply cannot give up my NJ ID because of business incentives to remain a resident business owner in state.

    Thanks,
    Mike

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Questions about PA possession/purchase (non resident property owner)

    I'll bite..

    Quote Originally Posted by TKMike View Post
    I have a situation, and I am sure others are in the same boat.

    I own two properties, one in NJ and one in PA. I stay in PA on the weekends, and in NJ during the week. I am a valid FID holder in NJ, in good standing, and do own firearms right now.

    Here are the questions I can't really seem to get clear answers on.

    1) Can I bring my handguns to my residence in PA legally, or do I need to register with PA to have them in my possession in my residence? Yes, however PA has no reciprocity with NJ therefore you cannot conceal it or carry it loaded in the car without your LTCF. Open carry is fine. You are able to apply for a PA non-resident LCTF. There is "no registration" for handguns in PA

    2) I know I can purchase long guns, but can I purchase a handgun in PA while still owning my NJ residence? No, you can only purchase a handgun in the state in which you reside. This is federal law. The only thing you would be able to do would be to have a FFL in PA ship the firearm to a FFL in your home state.

    I have been told everything from a utility bill/tax bill to prove ownership of property to "it can't be done without a state ID card".

    I asked about a state issued ID, but I can not get one without releasing my NJ DL. It seems very confusing, but I simply cannot give up my NJ ID because of business incentives to remain a resident business owner in state.

    Thanks,
    Mike
    Stay armed my friends.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Questions about PA possession/purchase (non resident property owner)

    The thing that is the worst part about this is if I give up my NJ info, I could get REALLY messed up in NJ with how the laws are there. If it comes down to the safer option of ID, I'll have to stay with NJ. I don't want to end up a gun law horror story.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Questions about PA possession/purchase (non resident property owner)

    1. PA does not register guns. The state police keep a record when you buy handguns, but there is no requirement to register what you have. It's pretty much the same as Jersey in that respect. PA doesn't care whether or not you bring handguns to PA, but Jersey might for your Jersey portion of the trip.

    A. Further, you need a carry license from Utah or NJ to conceal carry or Philly carry (even longguns in Philly, even in the car), because you don't (?) have a resident license from your own state.

    B. You need a carry license from ANY state (even if we don't recognize) to car carry handguns or transport handguns in cars any place except to and from home, range, etc. Can't just drive around with them in your trunk without some kind of license.

    C. You can open carry a loaded handgun on foot in PA with no license except in Philly.

    2. Yes, you can buy handguns in PA. ATF says if you own property in two states you can consider yourself a resident of either state while you are staying that the property. It may take a little work to convince an FFL to sell you a handgun, however.

    I am not a lawyer, so start there and confirm your yourself.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Questions about PA possession/purchase (non resident property owner)

    Thanks,

    I am not looking to carry, just transport and possess. I came to the same conclusion about purchase, but ID is really the issue. I'm not really looking to buy anything new at this time, so that part really does not matter.

    Thanks again for your input,

    Mike
    Last edited by TKMike; December 11th, 2013 at 05:34 PM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Questions about PA possession/purchase (non resident property owner)

    Possession is no problem, no permits or licenses or registration required. Just not public possession in Philly (at a range is OK I think).

    Transport for PA with no licenses or permits is unlimited for rifles, only to and from home/range/gun dealer/repair etc. (similar to Jersey but a little looser) for handguns if you have no carry permits. Again - except Phily, where you will generally need a UTAH/NJ permit in public or be going to and from a range (I forget the details).

    You really should consider getting a UTAH license, or even just any plain old license so you can drive around with the handgun in the car without worrying about stopping for groceries.

    Here is most of the law - http://www.acslpa.org/html/pa_uniform_firearms_act.html

    Note that it spans more than one page, you have to click on links to see all of it. Most of what you are asking about is in 6106. Please take a look and ask any questions you may have. Also check the stickies at the top of the General forum section and the Carry forum sections.

    §6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.



    (a) Offense defined.--

    * (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.
    * (2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a [FN1] valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.
    *

    * (b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:

    * (1) Constables, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies, policemen of this Commonwealth or its political subdivisions, or other law-enforcement officers.
    * (2) Members of the army, navy, marine corps, air force or coast guard of the United States or of the National Guard or organized reserves when on duty.
    * (3) The regularly enrolled members of any organization duly organized to purchase or receive such firearms from the United States or from this Commonwealth.
    * (4) Any persons engaged in target shooting with a firearm, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the firearm is not loaded.
    * (5) Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed firearm.
    * (6) Agents, messengers and other employees of common carriers, banks, or business firms, whose duties require them to protect moneys, valuables and other property in the discharge of such duties.
    * (7) Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of any such person, having in his possession, using or carrying a firearm in the usual or ordinary course of such business.
    * (8) Any person while carrying a firearm which is not loaded and is in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair, sale or appraisal or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police), or to a place of instruction intended to teach the safe handling, use or maintenance of firearms or back or to a location to which the person has been directed to relinquish firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm or to a licensed dealer's place of business for relinquishment pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S § 6108.2 (relating to relinquishment for consignment sale, lawful transfer or safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm or to a location for safekeeping pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108.3 (relating to relinquishment to third party for safekeeping) or back upon return of the relinquished firearm.
    * (9) Persons licensed to hunt, take furbearers or fish in this Commonwealth, if such persons are actually hunting, taking furbearers or fishing as permitted by such license, or are going to the places where they desire to hunt, take furbearers or fish or returning from such places.
    * (10) Persons training dogs, if such persons are actually training dogs during the regular training season.
    * (11) Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.
    * (12) A person who has a lawfully issued license to carry a firearm pursuant to section 6109 (relating to licenses) and that said license expired within six months prior to the date of arrest and that the individual is otherwise eligible for renewal of the license.
    * (13) Any person who is otherwise eligible to possess a firearm under this chapter and who is operating a motor vehicle which is registered in the person's name or the name of a spouse or parent and which contains a firearm for which a valid license has been issued pursuant to section 6109 to the spouse or parent owning the firearm.
    * (14) A person lawfully engaged in the interstate transportation of a firearm as defined under 18 U.S.C § 921(a)(3) (relating to definitions) in compliance with 18 U.S.C. § 926A (relating to interstate transportation of firearms).
    * (15) Any person who possesses a valid and lawfully issued license or permit to carry a firearm which has been issued under the laws of another state, regardless of whether a reciprocity agreement exists between the Commonwealth and the state under section 6109(k), provided:
    * (i) The state provides a reciprocal privilege for individuals licensed to carry firearms under section 6109.
    * (ii) The Attorney General has determined that the firearm laws of the state are similar to the firearm laws of this Commonwealth.
    * (16) Any person holding a license in accordance with section 6109(f)(3).
    *

    * (c) Sportsman's firearm permit.—

    * (1) Before any exception shall be granted under paragraph (b)(9) or (10) of this section to any person 18 years of age or older licensed to hunt, trap or fish or who has been issued a permit relating to hunting dogs, such person shall, at the time of securing his hunting, furtaking or fishing license or any time after such license has been issued, secure a sportsman's firearm permit from the county treasurer. The sportsman's firearm permit shall be issued immediately and be valid throughout this Commonwealth for a period of five years from the date of issue for any legal firearm, when carried in conjunction with a valid hunting, furtaking or fishing license or permit relating to hunting dogs. The sportsman's firearm permit shall be in triplicate on a form to be furnished by the Pennsylvania State Police. The original permit shall be delivered to the person, and the first copy thereof, within seven days, shall be forwarded to the Commissioner of the Pennsylvania State Police by the county treasurer. The second copy shall be retained by the county treasurer for a period of two years from the date of expiration. The county treasurer shall be entitled to collect a fee of not more than $6 for each such permit issued, which shall include the cost of any official form. The Pennsylvania State Police may recover from the county treasurer the cost of any such form, but may not charge more than $1 for each official permit form furnished to the county treasurer.
    * (2) Any person who sells or attempts to sell a sportsman's firearm permit for a fee in excess of that amount fixed under this subsection commits a summary offense.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Questions about PA possession/purchase (non resident property owner)

    Quote Originally Posted by TKMike View Post
    Thanks,

    I am not looking to carry, just transport and possess. I came to the same conclusion about purchase, but ID is really the issue. I'm not really looking to buy anything new at this time, so that part really does not matter.

    Thanks again for your input,

    Mike
    You can probably find a PA FFL that will sell/transfer handguns to you without a PA ID. You can probably prove a PA property with a tax bill and maybe some mail. You can prove identity with your NJ driver's license. It's simply a matter of which FFLs want to bother. If you ever become interested, I would ask around the forum for recommendations.

    Keep in mind, you can also buy firearms banned in NJ as long as you do not take them there. Including NFA (machineguns, silencers, etc.) Again, I'm not a lawyer, I've never done it, but that's what the ATF says in a nutshell. For you to explore.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Questions about PA possession/purchase (non resident property owner)

    Pa. state law says you have to be a Pa. resident to purchase a handgun in Pa.

    You have a Pa. residence, so you meet the requirement.

    The federal government says you can have multiple residences in multiple states (which means you can purchase handguns in any of those states). You can, however, only have one domicile, which is where it gets confusing. State law says residence, but they might mean domicile, but they didn't say domicile. The two terms, residence and domicile, are not interchangeable.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Questions about PA possession/purchase (non resident property owner)

    Since you have the NJ FID you're covered in NJ for transporting your unloaded and locked long guns without an exempted location.

    You're covered transporting handguns from NJ directly to a shooting range. Or vice-versa. Both PA (without a license) and NJ (all the time - I'm making the assumption you can't get a license) will require you to be going to/from exempted locations.

    I would recommend getting your Utah non-resident permit since, even if you dont plan to carry, it will give you more freedom to transport in PA.

    Keeping proof of your PA residence while traveling/transporting seems like a good idea.

    *One more point. I believe the NJ transportation of hollow-points does NOT allow for an exemption between residences. I.e. no hollow points going from your NJ home to your PA home. Only between NJ home and range.

    Of course, even if you're legal and covered, a wrongful arrest would be expense and devastating. So above all else don't volunteer ANY information (where are ya headed today? Sorry I'd rather not say) or consent to any searches.
    Last edited by jthrelf; December 12th, 2013 at 08:45 PM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Questions about PA possession/purchase (non resident property owner)

    Quote Originally Posted by Statkowski View Post
    Pa. state law says you have to be a Pa. resident to purchase a handgun in Pa.

    You have a Pa. residence, so you meet the requirement.

    The federal government says you can have multiple residences in multiple states (which means you can purchase handguns in any of those states). You can, however, only have one domicile, which is where it gets confusing. State law says residence, but they might mean domicile, but they didn't say domicile. The two terms, residence and domicile, are not interchangeable.
    Source?????
    IANAL

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