Boating while carrying and your PA LTCF...

[stayathomed]

this is great info...I'm on the Del out of the Easton area more than a few times a year. Never had it with me so far, and will now certainly continue on that path.

NJ...what a great place, huh?

[scruff]

Oh he could definitely lose all of them if not careful on the Delaware. And not in the good way the rest of us lost ours!

Engine stalls & won't restart, boat is drifting towards the NJ side, have to jettison the guns to avoid arrest!

[Bill67]

I would agree that boating while armed on the Delaware is a crapshoot. I stopped going there after I bought a place at Wallenpaupack, and I don't miss dodging crazy boaters and semi submerged logs and junk. Well, there are still crazy boaters from PRNJ and PRNY on Wallenpaupack.

[03SVTCobra]

thanks for all the great info everyone. yeah I spoke w/ a good friend whom is LEO and VERY pro-2A, he knows firearms laws extremely well. this is what he told me:

Under an agreement with NJ, the NJSP patrol the Delaware and enforce NJ state law all the way to the PA shoreline...only exception is in Philly where Philly patrols the river from state line to the NJ side. Be forwarned.

I replied how that is pure weaksauce and his reply:

Yeah...PA doesn't spend the money on marine units, so they basically give jurisdiction to the NJSP to enforce the law on the river...and since NJ troopers can only enforce NJ law...well, you get it. There is some jurisdictional law (I can't remember what section it is...) that states that if you share a common border with another another jurisdiction that you can enforce the law on the entire border. For example, lets say there is a roadway that is shared by two states, one half in one state and the other half in the other state. Police from both states can enforce the law on the entire section of the roadway. I'm guessing this is also true on waterways, hence the reason for NJSP having jurisdiction from shore to shore.

That being said, I think you would have a pretty decent argument if you stayed close to the PA shoreline and the NJSP popped you for a firearms violation. The question is do you really want to go thru that hassle?

[tl_3237]

thanks for all the great info everyone. yeah I spoke w/ a good friend whom is LEO and VERY pro-2A, he knows firearms laws extremely well. this is what he told me:


I replied how that is pure weaksauce and his reply:

Shore to shore Delaware River jurisdiction for NJ/PA LEOs is correct but the laws enforced in that joint patrol area is that of the state above which one is situated at the time. From one of my old posts:

What I though was going to be an easy exercise turned into a historical foray addressing Delaware River jurisdiction between Pa and NJ.

There is actual law which is the result of a bilaterally ratified pact between the two states. I'll give the Pa statutes and reference to NJ’s verbatim statute:

71 P.S. § 1803 Line where Delaware is the boundary


Whereas inconveniences and mischiefs have arisen, and hereafter may arise, from the incertainty of jurisdiction within and on the river Delaware. Therefore, to prevent the same, and in order that law and justice may in all cases hereafter be executed and take effect within and upon the said river, from shore to shore, in all parts and places thereof, where the same river is the boundary between the said states, the said commissioners do agree and establish, for and in behalf of their respective states, in manner following:

§ 1805

Secondly. That each state shall enjoy and exercise a concurrent jurisdiction within and upon the water, and not upon the dry land, between the shores of said river, but in such sort, nevertheless, that every ship and other vessel, while riding at anchor before any city or town in either state, where she hath last laded or unladed, or where it is intended she shall first thereafter either lade or unlade, shall be considered exclusively within the jurisdiction of such state, and every vessel fastened to or aground on the shore of either state, shall in like manner be considered, exclusively, within the jurisdiction of such state, but that all capital and other offenses, trespasses or damages committed on said river, the judicial investigation and determination thereof shall be exclusively vested in the state, wherein the offender or person charged with such offense shall be first apprehended, arrested or prosecuted.

verbatim in NJSA 52:28-23 to 25

This pact was ratified in 1783 !!

IMO it says that an LEO from either state could arrest you in an unanchored boat afloat in the river in the other state’s jurisdiction but that the charges and prosecution remains in the state of apprehension. This would further imply that the violation would necessarily have to be a violation of the state of apprehension. For example: NJ could NOT arrest a person in Pa’s waters for Pa legal firearms possession since NJ’s laws do not extend into Pa however NJ could arrest a person in Pa’s waters for illegal Pa firearms possession but they would have to press those charges in Pa, not NJ.

Granuale had it right - rep sent.

http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...are-river.html

I'm somewhat dubious about LEOs having jurisdiction across land boundaries except for 'hot pursuit' laws. I do know of a statute in Pa that allows arrest for INDICTABLE offenses by out-of-state LEOs in 'close pursuit' [42 Pa.C.S.A. § 8922]. Could you find the statute citation either in NJ or Pa and post here?

[knight0334]

Shore to shore Delaware River jurisdiction for NJ/PA LEOs is correct but the laws enforced in that joint patrol area is that of the state above which one is situated at the time. From one of my old posts:



http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...are-river.html

I'm somewhat dubious about LEOs having jurisdiction across land boundaries except for 'hot pursuit' laws. I do know of a statute in Pa that allows arrest for INDICTABLE offenses by out-of-state LEOs in 'close pursuit' [42 Pa.C.S.A. § 8922]. Could you find the statute citation either in NJ or Pa and post here?

PA and NY states also have such an agreement. Somewhere in PA's laws there is a section that states that a NY LEO, who witnesses a crime within PA, may apprehend the subject, but must deliver him to authorities within PA.

I cant remember where exactly in the laws it is though. I ran across it when research all of PA's powers of arrest and firearms laws a few years ago. It was a codified section that was pretty old and based upon a pact with NY just like the pact with NJ. If I remember correctly the pact was dated about the same time we acquired the Erie area from New York State.

[tl_3237]

PA and NY states also have such an agreement. Somewhere in PA's laws there is a section that states that a NY LEO, who witnesses a crime within PA, may apprehend the subject, but must deliver him to authorities within PA.

I cant remember where exactly in the laws it is though. I ran across it when research all of PA's powers of arrest and firearms laws a few years ago. It was a codified section that was pretty old and based upon a pact with NY just like the pact with NJ. If I remember correctly the pact was dated about the same time we acquired the Erie area from New York State.

This is a somewhat muted statute for NY as compared to the one previously cited for NJ:

71 P.S. Chapter 19. New York Boundary Line § 1858. Boundary on the Delaware


I. The channel of the Delaware river, from a line drawn across said channel, from a granite monument erected upon the eastern bank of said river in the year 1882, by the joint boundary commission of the states of New Jersey and New York to mark the western extremity of the boundary line between said states of New Jersey and New York, in a westerly prolongation of said boundary line up and along said channel of said Delaware river as it winds and turns, for a distance of eighty-five miles or thereabouts, to a line drawn east across said river from a granite monument erected upon the west bank of said river in the year 1884, by H. W. Clarke and C. M. Gere, to mark the easterly extremity of the first line hereinafter described, shall continue to be a part of the boundary or partition line between the said two states: Provided however, That the limit of territory between the said two states shall be the centre of the said main channel: And provided further, That each state shall enjoy and exercise a concurrent jurisdiction within and upon the water of said main channel between the lines of low water at either bank thereof, between the limits hereinbefore mentioned.

1887, June 6, P.L. 353, Preamble No. 2.

Such joint jurisdiction only extends to the low tide portions of the Delaware River. Couldn't find anything regarding statutory arrest powers between Pa<->NY other than the 'close pursuit' generalization.

[father-of-five]

A year or two back an individual was arrested, initially for having an open container of alcohol on a boat, for which he was directed by New Jersey police to the New Jersey side at Lambertville, where he arrested for much more than an open container of alcohol.

[tl_3237]

A year or two back an individual was arrested, initially for having an open container of alcohol on a boat, for which he was directed by New Jersey police to the New Jersey side at Lambertville, where he arrested for much more than an open container of alcohol.

http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-d.../post_278.html

He was confronted while at the Lambertville NJ boat ramp with a handgun in his pocket - just plain dumb.

[Kchristy]

Shore to shore Delaware River jurisdiction for NJ/PA LEOs is correct but the laws enforced in that joint patrol area is that of the state above which one is situated at the time. From one of my old posts:



http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...are-river.html

I'm somewhat dubious about LEOs having jurisdiction across land boundaries except for 'hot pursuit' laws. I do know of a statute in Pa that allows arrest for INDICTABLE offenses by out-of-state LEOs in 'close pursuit' [42 Pa.C.S.A. § 8922]. Could you find the statute citation either in NJ or Pa and post here?

I would, but I already posted it n my previous reply.