Bloomsburg / Berwick "Concealed Carry Class" - bad info on OC

[Eskimo]

This - http://links.pahousenews.com/q/QlJ8M...eLGxQmzs5GGi5l

Sheriff Chamberlain *and* DA Leipold both stated that "if you OC and are approached, you're required to provide identification." I and another gentleman both asked where that was stated, but they could not state where in the Statutes it was (Erm, cause is isn't!).

I talked to the Sheriff after the presentation and again asked about the ID, and he said that much like they can stop every car going down the road at a DUI checkpoint looking for activity, he can stop anyone he sees OC'ing...and he will. I didn't think to mention saying "you can stop every car because it requires a license to drive, but no license to OC", but it's true, he could engage me with a casual encounter, but I'm still not required to provide identification unless he has RAS.. But anyway..

There's another class on 11/7 in Berwick, if anyone wants to set them straight.. I feel bad that I didn't say more.

There was also some bad info about carrying on school grounds, but that's not relevant in the OC section

[knight0334]

The Sheriff has no authority to stop someone, except for:

1. Felonies he has reason to believe have occurred.
2. Breaches of the peace he personally witnesses.
3. When there is a warrant.

Since merely openly carrying is not a felony or breach of the peace - any arrest would be illegal and punishable by fines and prison.

You should remind him of the John Bad Elk v United States case before he goes arresting anyone.

[Kaxi]

Ill be going to the next class and will be happy to set them straight

[Eskimo]

You should remind him of the John Bad Elk v United States case before he goes arresting anyone.

He didn't say arrest.. he just said he'd stop and talk to them, but that they would be "required" to show ID, so he can ascertain if they're prohibited from owning a firearm.. (I know, just repeating what was said)

[fishingfool151]

Just RSVP'ed. See everyone there. I'll be OCing, so we'll see if anything is said. Anyone interested in getting dinner somewhere before the class?

[flyingjunkie]

He didn't say arrest.. he just said he'd stop and talk to them, but that they would be "required" to show ID, so he can ascertain if they're prohibited from owning a firearm.. (I know, just repeating what was said)

But even that in itself is illegal in PA because, if I'm not mistaken, in the state of PA, the sheriff has no investigative authority. So he's not allowed to investigate whether or not the person is allowed to have a firearm. The only thing he can do is make an arrest if a felony is committed right in front of him that requires no investigation to determine if the act committed by the person actually is a felony I.e. The sheriff watches, with his own eyes, a person rob a bank. If he sees it happen, he can arrest. Other than that, no go.

[Greywolf]

He didn't say arrest.. he just said he'd stop and talk to them, but that they would be "required" to show ID, so he can ascertain if they're prohibited from owning a firearm.. (I know, just repeating what was said)

The sheriff needs to review the rules laid down by the U.S. Supreme Court in Terry v. Ohio. Unless he can "clearly articulate" a reasonable suspicion that the person is committing a crime (or has committed a crime), he canNOT just stop someone to talk to them. He can ask them IF they'll talk to him, but he cannot require them to stop, he cannot require them to identify themselves, and he cannot require them to show identification.

Since open carry is legal without a permit, unless there is something else suspicious about the person, the fact of open carrying a firearm cannot be deemed a "clearly articulable fact" to support a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.

[flyingjunkie]

The sheriff needs to review the rules laid down by the U.S. Supreme Court in Terry v. Ohio. Unless he can "clearly articulate" a reasonable suspicion that the person is committing a crime (or has committed a crime), he canNOT just stop someone to talk to them. He can ask them IF they'll talk to him, but he cannot require them to stop, he cannot require them to identify themselves, and he cannot require them to show identification.

Since open carry is legal without a permit, unless there is something else suspicious about the person, the fact of open carrying a firearm cannot be deemed a "clearly articulable fact" to support a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.

But to build on this, even RAS isn't enough to allow the sheriff involvement. As I stated before, a sheriff in PA has no investigatory authority. Since the act of OCing alone, without further investigation, is not a felony, the sheriff is not allowed to take it further to find out if your are, in fact, lawfully or unlawfully in possession of a firearm. The only place a sheriff is allowed to investigate is in your background for the issuance of a LTCF.

[Steve in PA]

I went to Act 120 with Chamberlain. He was a smart guy. I would have thought he would know the law(s).

Sounds like him and his crew need to be set straight about what they can or cannot do. Perhaps someone that is attending should give them a copy of the 2009 MPOETC Update that covers OC.

[GunLawyer001]

It's worth reading Ickes again:

COMMONWEALTH v. ICKES, 873 A.2d 698 (2005) (Supreme Court of Pennsylvania)

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...n&as_sdt=4,230