Who has the authority?

[Orlov556]

I was wondering just *who* the authority is to make you leave a business if they do not like the fact that you OC. The Redners post made me ponder this issue but I didn’t want to reply there as it might derail that thread. But riddle me this:

Redners had a corporate no guns policy, which was rescinded. Now, who at Redners can make you leave? The GM? The produce manager? The cart boy/girl?

Same for other places i.e WalMart, really any place where the actual management/owner is not present and they have no “No-guns” policy.

I am not planning on defying any request to leave a place where I am not welcome, but I am just wondering what the verdict is on this…who exactly can make you leave, besides the police that show up and arrest you for trespassing?

[Gun]

Anyone authorized at the store can ask you to leave, even the stockboy. At that moment, it really doesn't matter, so any pissing match you dreamt of will be for naught.

[twency]

I was wondering just *who* the authority is to make you leave a business if they do not like the fact that you OC. The Redners post made me ponder this issue but I didn’t want to reply there as it might derail that thread. But riddle me this:

Redners had a corporate no guns policy, which was rescinded. Now, who at Redners can make you leave? The GM? The produce manager? The cart boy/girl?

Same for other places i.e WalMart, really any place where the actual management/owner is not present and they have no “No-guns” policy.

I am not planning on defying any request to leave a place where I am not welcome, but I am just wondering what the verdict is on this…who exactly can make you leave, besides the police that show up and arrest you for trespassing?

The wise course of action in those circumstances is to leave if anyone purporting to act as an agent of the property (e.g. any store employee) directs you to do so.

Once you've been advised that you're trespassing then you are engaged in defiant trespass by remaining, even if it's just a sign doing the advising, so anyone could legally make you leave if they are acting in accord with the owner/propirieor's wishes (and aren't breaking another law).

You might ask for a manager while in the process of complying with the employee's instruction. But you shouldn't refuse to leave no matter how lowly you think the person is in the corporate structure.

[Orlov556]

let me repeat as I did in my OP that I am not planning nor do I condone confrontation, which is why I don’t OC to begin with. So, please spare the holier than thou comments about wanting a pissing match.

The question came to me from reading another post about being asked to leave by someone after knowing the corporate policy. They complied, as they should have, to avoid confrontation. I condone that behavior. But since this is open for discussion, I am wondering who is authorized to act on behalf of the property? Certainly a store manager/GM would, but are you telling me the bag boy can dictate corporate policy?

[Gun]

But since this is open for discussion, I am wondering who is authorized to act on behalf of the property? Certainly a store manager/GM would, but are you telling me the bag boy can dictate corporate policy?

Already answered. Not that complicated.

Anyone authorized at the store can ask you to leave, even the stockboy.

Even if the store manager asks someone to leave, that person will always want to talk to someone with a higher authority. I'm not sure of the psychology behind this, as if people think they are entitled to be in any store at any given time, but that seems to be the general theme from my experience as a store manager, and what has been related on this forum.

[Shadowline]

Authority can be granted to anyone in a company. It is 100% up to the company to decide who can make that type of decision. The real issue is that they can decide on a whim whether one of their employees had the "right" to do so. That means you put yourself at the mercy of someone's mood if you don't listen to the stock-boy.

[twency]

let me repeat as I did in my OP that I am not planning nor do I condone confrontation, which is why I don’t OC to begin with. So, please spare the holier than thou comments about wanting a pissing match.

The question came to me from reading another post about being asked to leave by someone after knowing the corporate policy. They complied, as they should have, to avoid confrontation. I condone that behavior. But since this is open for discussion, I am wondering who is authorized to act on behalf of the property? Certainly a store manager/GM would, but are you telling me the bag boy can dictate corporate policy?

No, a bag boy generally can't dictate corporate policy, he can convey corporate policy. That was my point about a sign. It doesn't matter who's telling you the policy, what matters is that you've been made aware of the policy.

(Note, if so authorized by the owner/proprietor a bag boy could dictate corporate policy, as Shadowline indicated. It's just that generally they aren't so authorized.)

[Anthony1911]

What about a place, like Wal Mart or Home Depot, where corporate policy allows OC in states that allow it? What if a bagger or cashier says I can't have my gun in the store because it's their policy, when I'm aware that their policy isn't that?

Personally, I'd ask to speak to their manager and clarify the policy, as it is my understanding that the policy is different.

[twency]

What about a place, like Wal Mart or Home Depot, where corporate policy allows OC in states that allow it? What if a bagger or cashier says I can't have my gun in the store because it's their policy, when I'm aware that their policy isn't that?

Personally, I'd ask to speak to their manager and clarify the policy, as it is my understanding that the policy is different.

How do you know the corporate policy hasn't just changed since the last time you checked? Apparently Redner's changed their corporate policy twice in a short amount of time.

Or how do you know that that particular location doesn't have additional restrictions which are out of the control of corporate policy? (I seem to recall a discussion of PAFOA of how a particular Walmart prohibits carrying on their property because the property owner, which isn't Walmart, requires it.)

Once you've been ordered to leave you're on shaky legal ground if you stay. You can ask if it's ok if you stay long enough to speak to a manager, or you can ask for a manager as you leave. But just standing firm and saying "I don't have to leave because the big bosses in Bentonville say I don't have to, I demand to speak to a manager" is asking for trouble IMO.

[Anthony1911]

How do you know the corporate policy hasn't just changed since the last time you checked? Apparently Redner's changed their corporate policy twice in a short amount of time.

Or how do you know that that particular location doesn't have additional restrictions which are out of the control of corporate policy? (I seem to recall a discussion of PAFOA of how a particular Walmart prohibits carrying on their property because the property owner, which isn't Walmart, requires it.)

Once you've been ordered to leave you're on shaky legal ground if you stay. You can ask if it's ok if you stay long enough to speak to a manager, or you can ask for a manager as you leave. But just standing firm and saying "I don't have to leave because the big bosses in Bentonville say I don't have to, I demand to speak to a manager" is asking for trouble IMO.

Okay. And I wouldn't refuse to leave, I would just ask for a manager if someone other than a manager, asst. manager or security asked me to leave for carrying in a place I'm 99% sure allows OC. If they said "No, you need to leave." I would leave and follow up afterwards.

I was OCing in Home Depot in Bensalem and a loader said I couldn't bring my gun in the store due to corporate policy, and I assured him he was incorrect, and waited while he got the manager, who then informed him he was wrong and to leave me alone. More than likely, if someone very low on the chain asks you to leave and you ask if you could speak to a manager (note: ASK, not demand), they will contact the manager or asst. manager.