.40 S&W Common logic = better than you think?

[ICEN]

I don't know why this just hit me today probably because I been looking at more things dealing with .40 S&W that I decided to look at the .40 more.

Anyways, you here people saying ALL THE TIME :

They say : A 45 acp is more powerful than a .40 S&W
Then you here people say a .357 mag is more powerful then both a .45 acp and a .40 S&W.

Now wait!

I know your about to say a .357 is more powerful ! But hold on first.

I just noticed that when I simplified the .45 acp, the .40 S&W and the .357 magnum that MY OWN LOGIC is telling me that the .40 S&W is actually more powerful than a .45 acp and SOME .357 mag loads.

Here is my logic to me this logic seems true.

A .357 mag is obviously smaller than a .40 S&W and a .45 ACP.

In fact If I remember right a .357 is almost the same size as a 9mm just barely bigger. (The bullet not the case)

So I ask myself why is the smaller bullet more powerul if its the almost a 9mm? Of course you already know the answer because it is moving way faster, but I'm not done yet.

Okay so if the reason a .357 mag is so strong is because the speed makes up for the caliber then get this.

Since a .357 Magnum is KNOWN to be more powerful then a .45 acp then actually a .40 S&W should be KNOWN to be more powerful than a .45 acp using the same logic I'm about to tell you.

Underwood makes a .40 S&W that reaches 1500 fps 135g 675ft/pnds

So I just told myself wait a minute????

How can people possibly say that a 125g .357 which is smaller than a .40S&W and reaches 1440 fps be more powerful than a .45 acp and be the best man stopper yet when it comes to the .40S&W they act as if its under the .45acp when it should actually BLOW IT AWAY?????

So my logic

IF:

A: A 125g .357mag which reaches 1440 fps and is almost a 9mm is considered the best man stopper by data and by people crowed to be over a .45 acp in any talk.

Then

B: A .40S&W 135g and moving 1500fps should not be only to match that but do better then the beloved .357 magnum load I listed above. So in that logic it IS better than a .45 acp when you get up to hot loads from what I know of.

Now in conclusion lets take a final look at the comparison.

.357 Mag = 125g = 1440 fps = People claim its the best thing ever

.40S&W(Bigger caliber/hole) = 135g(10g more) = 1500(60fps more) = people still claim its under a .45 acp yet they will say that same .357 mag is better?

In that logic I say the .40 S&W is a bit more powerful than a .45 acp AT HOT LOADS FROM WHAT I KNOW ABOUT.

__________________________________________________ _______________

Yes I know that a .357 Magnum can blow the .40 away at its hottest loads.

But I am saying if you are using the logic that a small .357 with alot of speed has that type of power to exceed a .45 acp then by the same logic the .40 does as well.

So my logic has changed, I now believe that it goes.

.357 magnum > .40 S&W > .45 ACP > 9mm

I am assuming you are allowed to pick hot loads.

If you want to defend the .45 acp just remember that if you say anything about the .357 being more powerful because of SPEED then you can't say anything about the .40 because it can have SPEED plus its bigger then .357 mag.

I am now laughing so hard because it makes sense now, all the people who think they were smart saying .357 mag 125g is the best but yet at the same time downing the .40 now looks stupid in my eyes after I seen the common sense logic.

This is my new found logic, what do you think, you still think the .45 acp is more powerful than a .40S&W?

[TJB63]

Wow!!

Your "Logic" gives me a Headache, Truthfully I lost interest half-way thru, But As for which is better, All three (.45, .40 and .357) All have the Reputation for getting the Job done, It comes down to Shot placement for me, I can have a hand cannon capable of destroying a Humvee, But it does me no good if I can't hit it.

A Handgun is a Defensive tool, You are Always better with a Rifle, That said, We can't go around concealing Rifles all that easily, So you find a handgun and Caliber combo that Works for YOU, We are all different in the World, If we weren't then there would be only 1 Handgun and Caliber.

The .45 came about after extensive testing on Human Cadavers and Live Animals, It was designed with the thought of being able to put down a Shell Shocked Horse on the Battlefield, It has went on the serve so well that it's still in use by some Military units today.

The .40 Caliber came about as a Compromise between 9mm & .45 - It was sold as having the power (Velocity) of a 9mm with the stopping power of a .45, It too is a Good caliber and a Good choice if you can handle it.

The .357 came about as a result of the .38 not always being a man stopper, Someone decided to upsize it a slight bit and thus the .38 became what it always should have been.

The 9mm Parabellum (For War) was the European answer to the ultimate pistol/submachine gun caliber. in Hardball loading it is and isn't known to be a man stopper but a good hole puncher.

The 9mm & .45 go back over a Hundred years with the .357 not too far behind that, The .40 was a 90's version of a powered down off shoot to the 10mm that came about late 70's/early 80's.

The Bottom line is, Anyone of these cartridges in Modern Loadings are pretty dam good for Defensive purposes, It just comes down to what YOU can hit consistently with.

As the Old saying goes, The .22 you can Always hit the Target with, is a much better gun than the .45 you can't hit shit with.

TJB

[iamtommyboy]

TLDR; cliffs notes?

[nateebobo]

To be fair i think the load you should be looking at is a .357mag @157 gr. clocking in the neighborhood of 1400 fps. at least thats the "man stopper" load and gets bullet weight in the same class. fwiw i hate wheelguns and would rather have a .45+p 185gr. dpx over any.40 due to recoil and being able to actually get rapid hits on target than constantly be looking for sights with the .40 as ive always found it a bit jumpy for me. however 9 out of 10 times i got a 9 full of 124gr.+p gold dots and im ok with that too.

[QuackXP]

.380, .38, 9mm, .357 Sig, , 40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 Mag are all inferior to virtually any popular center fire rifle cartridge.

I don't care for .45 because of the limit in round count you loose over some smaller calibers. This also takes out revolvers for me. .357 Sig and .40 to me based of my own research and discussion seem to be the sweet spot and are the most modern calibers. .40 is significantly more popular and less expensive so that is the route I chose for my primary HD firearm.

I have a compact singe stack 9mm. I went with 9 for control and one more round. I also have a pocket .380, I chose .380 for the ultimate small size and somewhat for control.

[ICEN]

Can we not turn this thread into a thread about accuracy?

It really is quite annoying that no matter what caliber you talk about someone has to say the old saying of "A hit with a BB gun is better than a miss with a nuke"

Seriously I think we get the point.

The point of the thread was to prove or at least see if by ON PAPER at least by what the bullet says it can do, the .40 S&W should actually be able to out perform the .45 acp?

I make it simple :

Everyone talks about the big mighty .45acp is more powerful than then .40 S&W

Well if that was true then why is it that the .40 S&W hot loads surpass that of the .45 acp???

I'm being serious? I want to know why people would still think the .45 acp out classes a hot loaded .40 S&W if from what I see the on paper basically gives it away just like a .357 mag on paper blows both away?

Just like a .44 mag blows those away and just like a .500 S&W on paper blows them all away.

I want to know this.

How is underwoods .40 S&W 135g bullet which travels 1500 fps NOT OUTCLASSING THE .45 ACP?

I get that ON paper isn't everything but it does tell a good bit of truth to what it has the possibility of doing.

I'm saying that if .40S&W loads can be loaded hotter then how is it even arguable that a .45 acp packs more power LOL.

Again don't turn this into a accuracy thread or say a miss with a mortar is worst then a hit with a rock.

If thats the case nobody might as well never talk about anything that deals with calibers other wise it will turn into a thread about accuracy when I'm just talking about what the bullet CAN DO.

[bluetrane2028]

Pocket carry .380 and OWB carry .40 for me.

That said, I wouldn't feel particularly vulnerable with a .357 revolver. Speed loaders make reloads quick enough with practice.

[ICEN]

To be fair i think the load you should be looking at is a .357mag @157 gr. clocking in the neighborhood of 1400 fps. at least thats the "man stopper" load and gets bullet weight in the same class. fwiw i hate wheelguns and would rather have a .45+p 185gr. dpx over any.40 due to recoil and being able to actually get rapid hits on target than constantly be looking for sights with the .40 as ive always found it a bit jumpy for me. however 9 out of 10 times i got a 9 full of 124gr.+p gold dots and im ok with that too.

I'm going by what was said to be the best man stopper.
Thats not me thats from what is said by others and so called data.

I'm just saying that if the .40 S&W is keeping up with some of the .357 mag loads and probably doing better than some of them since it has the same fps and is a bigger bullet, I don't get how someone can say the .45 acp packs more power than a bullet that ON PAPER shows its more powerful then the .45 acp because its not as hot.

I am saying that

Just as the .357 magnum is more powerful because of FPS even though its smaller than both a .45 acp and a .40 S&W

The .40 S&W is in the same boat, it has FPS like the .357 magnum.

So how can on one hand you use the data saying :

Yes the .357 mag is smaller but more powerful because of FPS!

but then on the other hand people will say

The .40 S&W is weaker than the .45 acp even though just like the .357 mag the .40 S&W is smaller but has more FPS to make it more powerful with a hot load that surpasses the .45 acp on paper and based on what the bullet is supposed to do.

Nobody gets what I am saying?

You can't say the .40 S&W is weaker than the .45 acp without in reality saying the .357 mag is weak too because its in the same boat, smaller but more FPS.

[QuackXP]

Talking about handgun calibers are a moot point. Better shot placement and gaining access to a long gun is key.

Bold is my emphases.

TACTICAL REALITIES

Shot placement is an important, and often cited, consideration regarding the suitability of weapons and ammunition. However, considerations of caliber are equally important and cannot be ignored. For example, a bullet through the central nervous system with any caliber of ammunition is likely to be immediately incapacitating.5 Even a .22 rimfire penetrating the brain will cause immediate incapacitation in most cases. Obviously, this does not mean the law enforcement agency should issue .22 rimfires and train for head shots as the primary target. The realities of shooting incidents prohibit such a solution.

Few, if any, shooting incidents will present the officer with an opportunity to take a careful, precisely aimed shot at the subject’s head. Rather, shootings are characterized by their sudden, unexpected occurrence; by rapid and unpredictable movement of both officer and adversary; by limited and partial target opportunities; by poor light and unforeseen obstacles; and by the life or death stress of sudden, close, personal violence. Training is quite properly oriented towards "center of mass" shooting. That is to say, the officer is trained to shoot at the center of whatever is presented for a target. Proper shot placement is a hit in the center of that part of the adversary which is presented, regardless of anatomy or angle.

A review of law enforcement shootings clearly suggests that regardless of the number of rounds fired in a shooting, most of the time only one or two solid torso hits on the adversary can be expectd. This expectation is realistic because of the nature of shooting incidents and the extreme difficulty of shooting a handgun with precision under such dire conditions. The probability of multiple hits with a handgun is not high. Experienced officers implicitly recognize that fact, and when potential violence is reasonably anticipated, their preparations are characterized by obtaining as many shoulder weapons as possible. Since most shootings are not anticipated, the officer involved cannot be prepared in advance with heavier armament. As a corollary tactical principle, no law enforcement officer should ever plan to meet an expected attack armed only with a handgun.

The handgun is the primary weapon for defense against unexpected attack. Nevertheless, a majority of shootings occur in manners and circumstances in which the officer either does not have any other weapon available, or cannot get to it. The handgun must be relied upon, and must prevail. Given the idea that one or two torso hits can be reasonably expected in a handgun shooting incident, the ammunition used must maximize the likelihood of immediate incapacitation.

.

Link to source PDF.

[ICEN]

May I ask you why the hell you are even decided to come on my thread and say this random shit that everyone knows?

This has 0% absolutely has do with what I am talking about and you can go make your own thread about shooting your .22's and what not because this thread has nothing to do about anything you just said.

I hate to do it but I have to :

LETS SEE IF YOU GUYS CAN FUCKING READ FOR ONCE

This is an A or B answer.

First a little story.

A 10mm is a .40 Caliber (Longer case) aka alot more FPS
- This in return makes the .40 caliber MORE POWERFUL than a .45 acp
- If you argue against this you are a idiot

A .357 Magnum is almost a 9mm (Longer case) aka alot more FPS
- This in return makes the almost 9mm MORE POWERFUL than a .45 acp
- if you argue against this you are retarded

So its clear that is all about the mass and speed and the speed greatly increases power. If not then get shot with a 10mm over a 9mm since it makes no difference because I'm sure some idiot sill say it is no different.

So here is your A and B answer you get to choose from.

Based on facts .

.45 ACP UNDERWOOD
_________________
-185g
-592ft/lb
-1200fps

VS

.40 S&W UNDERWOOD
____________________
-135g
-675ft/lb
-1500fps

TELL ME HOW THE HELL THE .45 ACP IS MORE POWERFUL USING THOSE FaCTS.

A-The .45 ACP is more powerful based on those facts
B- The .40 S&W is more poewrful based on those facts

You have to be an idiot to not know the answer.
I'm done with this forum bye bye, nothing but dumb asses who make smart ass comments that are fucking retarded. They have nothing to do with my thread so fuck off please.

I don't give a fuck about this forum anymore you can all go fuck off since you all have smart ass remarks. I'll go to the better forums where people ain't dumbasses and say stupid shit like "A hit with frosted flake is better than a miss with your mother"

Quit saying stupid shit that has nothing to do with what I am talking about, and quit saying shit I already know dumb fucks. Go eat your fucking mcdonalds.

If you want to know why I acted this way just go fucking start from page 1 and read the thread and see the dumb shit people post regarding to the threads title.

Fuck off I proved the .40S&W out does .45 acp and you dumbasses want to not even try to argue against it because you know its true .

B Y E B Y E FOR FUCKING GOOD

I'm never coming back.

I'm tired of dumbasses on the forums saying useless shit.

Here my tip to save some lifes since you all own guns and think your smart asses.

Fucking stop eating your fucking mcdonalds so you don't die because your gun can't stop your dumbasses from killing yourself with food.

PS : Troll - I got them good this time