Pistol with no serial number

**phillyd2** · January 7th, 2007, 05:37 PM

At the range not long ago I got into a discussion with some guys - did not know them, just a bull session while having a smoke.

One was saying that he found in his grandfather's basement an old pistol from like 1930 or something. He cleaned it up and shot it a few times. Later he wanted to know more about it so started to do some research on the model, when it was made, etc.

Anyway, he discovered that the old gun had no serial number. He thought that maybe at some point it was somehow removed, his grandfather's cousin or something had been a tool and die maker or something. He indicated that there was no evideance of it being scratched off so if it was removed whoever did it knew what he was doing.

The question asked, which I had no clue to the answer, was what to do with it. Did they ever sell pistols without serial numbers? I assumed NO and that it was illegal to own but that's just a guess.

For my curiosity, what do you guys think about it?

**KeithPA** · January 7th, 2007, 05:46 PM

I think there is something in the UFA about an altered/obscured serial number.
There ya go....

§6110.2. Possession of Firearm with Altered Manufacturer's Number.

(a) General rule.-No person shall possess a firearm which has had the manufacturer's number integral to the frame or receiver altered, changed, removed or obliterated.

(b) Penalty.-A person who violates this section commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.

(c) Definition.-As used in this section, the term "firearm" shall have the same meaning as that term is defined in section 6105(i) (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms), except that the term shall not include antique firearms as de*fined in section 6118 (relating to antique firearms).

I somehow doubt they ever did. Think of .milsurplus rifles. They have serial numbers and some of them are a good hundred years old.

The only thing I can think of, is if the man's grandfather manufactured the gun himself. Like when one builds an AK. No company/manufacturer would ever make guns without serial numbers. So I'd have to assume it was either built or the serial number was destroyed.

**PA Rifleman** · January 7th, 2007, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by phillyd2

... Did they ever sell pistols without serial numbers? ...

Yes, serial numbers were a fairly late development in the firearm timeline. It didn't become an offense until the National Firearms act of 1934 required serial numbers on machine guns, although non-numbered title 1 guns were commercially made as late as 1968. If your gun pre-dates 1968, the grandfather clause should apply. Here's a gun commercially made between 1934 and 1968 -- look at item HS1106 on the Gun Runner Specials.

If you want a serial number, it should be possible to have a serial number issued by BATFE and stamped onto the gun.

**phillyd2** · January 7th, 2007, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by DeltaII5

The only thing I can think of, is if the man's grandfather manufactured the gun himself. Like when one builds an AK. No company/manufacturer would ever make guns without serial numbers. So I'd have to assume it was either built or the serial number was destroyed.

From what I understand it was not a home made pistol. I too assume that the serial number was destroyed many years ago.

I guess the question is: If you had it, what would you do? I think I would be tempted to just keep it but I would not want to do anything not legal.

**KeithPA** · January 7th, 2007, 06:58 PM

Learn something new everyday. Just assumed guns have had serial numbers since 1900s. I can't find anything on that GunRunners site? What gun doesn't have serial numbers?

If a gun never had serial numbers, then it really doesn't matter. If the serial numbers were destroyed then that isn't good. But I mean the serial numbers on my battered and beaten M44s still are on it. My guns were is horrible shape before I refinished them. I doubt the wore off, if they even existed.

What kinda gun was it? Auto? Revolver?

**PA Rifleman** · January 7th, 2007, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by phillyd2

I guess the question is: If you had it, what would you do? I think I would be tempted to just keep it but I would not want to do anything not legal.

If it was a true pre-1968 and didn't have the numbers rubbed off, I'd keep it without a second thought. I would likely place it in the same container as the other (perfectly legal) guns of interrupted provenance and pre-1899 guns that fire modern cartridges. Feel free to call me eccentric, but I organize my collection a little differently after returning from the fall 2005 south Louisiana spin-wash convention.

Originally Posted by DeltaII5

.... I can't find anything on that GunRunners site? What gun doesn't have serial numbers?

From http://www.neaca.com/GunRunnerSpecials.html

About half-way down:

"Stevens Single Bbl. Shotguns

HS1106 ~ (Top) Stevens Model 940E, Savage Arms, Westfield, Mass., 16 gauge single shot shotgun top break by right side lever. The 28" barrel made of forged steel has excellent bore, 2 3/4" chamber and 99% blue finish. The receiver has 99% black finish (Japanned) remaining. Hardwood stocks are excellent. No serial number (pre 1968) gun overall is in excellent condition. FFL Required or Dealer to Dealer Transfer. ... $145.00. ... BUY NOW"

**aubie515** · January 7th, 2007, 10:24 PM

A few years ago I was at a gun show and one of the vendors was selling a pistol without a SN. A pistol that does not have a SN would be impossible to trace, so I would venture to say that the BATF wouldn't like too many of those firearms floating around out on the streets.

**Frenchy** · January 8th, 2007, 02:46 AM

Get your self a piece of steel, a very good fine file, and file away untill you have a decent amount of steel dust, then place it on the gun where you think the serial number might have been had there been one, and place a large magnet on the steel of the gun. The filings will move to where the serial number was if there ever was one and define what the numbers actually where.

Most serial numbers are punched, not engraved, and punched steel has a different magnatism then the steel around it. You can use a large speaker magnet. If there ever was a puched number on the frame, it will stand out.

**CCinPA** · January 8th, 2007, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Frenchy

Get your self a piece of steel, a very good fine file, and file away untill you have a decent amount of steel dust, then place it on the gun where you think the serial number might have been had there been one, and place a large magnet on the steel of the gun. The filings will move to where the serial number was if there ever was one and define what the numbers actually where.

Most serial numbers are punched, not engraved, and punched steel has a different magnatism then the steel around it. You can use a large speaker magnet. If there ever was a puched number on the frame, it will stand out.

Hmmm, Interesting I never knew this! Frenchy have you ever tried this and if so how defined is the serial number?

**ChamberedRound** · January 8th, 2007, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Frenchy

Get your self a piece of steel, a very good fine file, and file away untill you have a decent amount of steel dust, then place it on the gun where you think the serial number might have been had there been one, and place a large magnet on the steel of the gun. The filings will move to where the serial number was if there ever was one and define what the numbers actually where.

Most serial numbers are punched, not engraved, and punched steel has a different magnatism then the steel around it. You can use a large speaker magnet. If there ever was a puched number on the frame, it will stand out.

Nice tip Frenchy. Never knew this was possible; learn something new every day.