Traveling across state lines with friend that lacks CCW, in their car... Questions.

[Freddie]

I will be traveling with a friend who does not have a concealed carry permit. Our destination is a state that recognizes PA permit to carry concealed. I will be doing the majority of the driving in their vehicle, and am curious what extra considerations must be taken, if any, when driving in other states; both those that recognize my PA carry permit, as well as those that don't (MD, NJ, DE, SC, specifically).

The plan is to have two locked, Center of Mass, cases; one for my unloaded pistol, and the other for my ammunition. I will keep both in the trunk, except in those states that recognize my permit, which I then will carry on my person.

If I am driving their car, with my firearm and ammunition in it, are they at risk of legal trouble/consequences if it's discovered that I am transporting a securely locked firearm in their vehicle? They do not have a CCW permit, I do.

While on this subject, and as a secondary question: What are the repercussions, if any, of leaving my loaded gun securely locked in a safe in their vehicle within Pennsylvania or other state that recognizes my permit to carry?

Furthermore, are there any potential repercussions for me driving their car in Pennsylvania while carrying concealed?

I'd like as much information as possible about this, as the answers I hope to receive will not only directly affect whose car we end up driving, but also whether I should order two safes or one. If I can leave my gun in their car while in PA, I will buy two and keep one in their car, and the other in mine.

This question/concern arose recently, and while this thread could likely be two separate threads, I'm hoping it can become a good resource for carrying/transporting firearms in the vehicles of those that don't have a CCW permit in Pennsylvania.

Any and all information is greatly appreciated. To this point, I've only been planning/considering the proper preparation to take my firearm across state lines without violation, but just realized that by doing this in the vehicle of someone that doesn't have a permit to carry could potentially open the door to a host of new issues/concerns.

[smco]

You should read this stickied thread on interstate transportation of firearms. I am hesitant to say anything more because I am not a lawyer. There is a lot of excellent research on this site, and the above link is a great place to start.

[Freddie]

Thanks for the response and advice. I've actually read that thread and found it very helpful, but I'd like to get more specific information relating to vehicles, specifically, whether the owner of the vehicle matters, if possible.

I read the following at HandgunLaw.us (boldface for emphasis):

Are there exceptions to carrying a firearm without a Pennsylvania License to Carry?

A License to Carry Firearms is issued to carry a firearm concealed on one’s person or in a vehicle within this Commonwealth.

Any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person except in his place of abode or fixed place of business without a valid and lawfully issued license commits a felony of the third degree.

A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.

The heart of my question relates to vehicle ownership and how it affects the concealed carry rights of a person driving a vehicle they don't own.

In the first boldface portion above, the right to carry in a vehicle is expressed (ownership of vehicle no specified).

In the second boldfaced portion, any vehicle is mentioned as being off limits to non permit holders.

The second question/concern I have is: What constitutes carrying in a vehicle? If I have the gun loaded and locked in a safe within the car of a person that does not have a CCW, are they liable or at risk of legal ramifications?

For the sake of the scenarios presented in this thread, the owner of the car would never have the gun on their person, but it would potentially be stored in their vehicle in a legal manner, depending on the state and its reciprocity laws.

[Arrdy]

I'll start by saying I am NOT a lawyer, anything I say is MY opinion.

If you have sole control of the keys to the lock boxes, the weapon should be considered as under your control. And it shouldn't matter who driving who's car as long as the weapon is under YOUR control.

I wouldn't leave a lockbox in another person's car without giving them the key, to show the box is empty and avoid having the car impounded. Probably not legal but who knows what's going to happen some dark night along a lonely back road. But they're your friends ....

I would SERIOUSLY reconsider taking any firearm or ammunition into some of the states you've listed, locked up, unloaded whatever.

[twency]

Thanks for the response and advice. I've actually read that thread and found it very helpful, but I'd like to get more specific information relating to vehicles, specifically, whether the owner of the vehicle matters, if possible.

I read the following at HandgunLaw.us (boldface for emphasis):



The heart of my question relates to vehicle ownership and how it affects the concealed carry rights of a person driving a vehicle they don't own.

In the first boldface portion above, the right to carry in a vehicle is expressed (ownership of vehicle no specified).

In the second boldfaced portion, any vehicle is mentioned as being off limits to non permit holders.

The second question/concern I have is: What constitutes carrying in a vehicle? If I have the gun loaded and locked in a safe within the car of a person that does not have a CCW, are they liable or at risk of legal ramifications?

For the sake of the scenarios presented in this thread, the owner of the car would never have the gun on their person, but it would potentially be stored in their vehicle in a legal manner, depending on the state and its reciprocity laws.

Ownership of the vehicle is irrelevant for most purposes under 18 Pa.C.S. § 6106. (The only time it matters is exception (b)(13), relating to the vehicle of a spouse or parent.)

Transporting a "firearm" (handgun, SBS, SBR) in any way in any vehicle is effectively "carry" in a vehicle for the purpose of the statute, and generally either a license/permit (from any state) is required or one must meet another exception. (Examples of exceptions are unloaded trips between home and a range, or being a law enforcement officer. See the text of the statute for all the exceptions.)

If you are transporting your own firearm in someone else's vehicle, you are fine as long as you have a license and have control of the firearm.

If the owner of the vehicle is not licensed and doesn't meet another exception, he may not transport his firearm in the vehicle. However he may loan his firearm to you because you have a PA license (loans of firearms to unlicensed persons are prohibited), and you can transport his firearm in his vehicle.

Apologies if the above isn't clear, I'm in a hurry. If you have more questions or need more clarification just say so.

[Freddie]

Thanks for the additional responses.

We will be traveling south, and unfortunately, aside from a major detour to West Virginia, it's difficult to travel that direction without going through a state that doesn't honor a PA permit.

The plan is to keep the firearm and ammunition separately locked in safes in the vehicle's trunk, which will not be accessible from the passenger compartment.

There are no plans to stay in any states that don't honor PA permits, and we'll solely be passing through as a means to reach our destination.

Are there any other considerations or steps that must be taken when crossing state lines with a firearm? To this point, my main concern has been to make sure the firearm and ammunition are kept separate and locked up adequately.

I've read recommendations in threads here in regards to printing out documentation and laws regarding firearm possession for the states that one will be passing through, and I am curious how widely that is practiced/recommended?

I'm admittedly most concerned about the vehicle ownership issue, though twency's post is reassuring in that regard. My friend does not own a firearm and I will be the only one with a key to the safes the gun and ammo are stored in.

One question that is only slightly related is in regards to staying at a hotel while en route to final destination: Is it better to leave the gun/ammo locked in the car overnight, or take it into the hotel with me?

We will only be staying overnight in states that honor PA permits, and while I acknowledge it is generally not advised to leave a secured firearm in a car unattended, I am more curious about the safer legal path in this instance.

[R L Suehr]

Thanks for the additional responses.

We will be traveling south, and unfortunately, aside from a major detour to West Virginia, it's difficult to travel that direction without going through a state that doesn't honor a PA permit.

The plan is to keep the firearm and ammunition separately locked in safes in the vehicle's trunk, which will not be accessible from the passenger compartment.

There are no plans to stay in any states that don't honor PA permits, and we'll solely be passing through as a means to reach our destination.

Are there any other considerations or steps that must be taken when crossing state lines with a firearm? To this point, my main concern has been to make sure the firearm and ammunition are kept separate and locked up adequately.

I've read recommendations in threads here in regards to printing out documentation and laws regarding firearm possession for the states that one will be passing through, and I am curious how widely that is practiced/recommended?

I'm admittedly most concerned about the vehicle ownership issue, though twency's post is reassuring in that regard. My friend does not own a firearm and I will be the only one with a key to the safes the gun and ammo are stored in.

One question that is only slightly related is in regards to staying at a hotel while en route to final destination: Is it better to leave the gun/ammo locked in the car overnight, or take it into the hotel with me?

We will only be staying overnight in states that honor PA permits, and while I acknowledge it is generally not advised to leave a secured firearm in a car unattended, I am more curious about the safer legal path in this instance.

First the obligatory IANAL.

I believe you have the right idea. Keeping the guns locked with ammo seperate is the only way to transport through the states that don't recognize your permit. I wouldn't think ownership of the vehicle makes no difference if you are the owner of the firearms.

Printing out the laws and carrying copies with you sounds like a good idea. Odds are you won't need them but it might be a good cover your ass move to help explain whats going on to an uninformed LEO in one of the comunist states you have to pass through. It probably won't matter to some of them if they are really hard pressed on making some kind of example out of you though.

If your only overnight stays are going to be in states that recognize your permit then I would definetly bring the firearm into the room with me and not leave it locked in the car. Leaving a gun in my car would be an absolute last option for me. If the hotel room had a safe in it even better.

It sounds to me like you have all your ducks in a row and a good understanding of the laws relating to interstate travel with your firearm. You should be fine.
Best bet is to not break any traffic laws and you will more than likely not encounter any LEO anyway.

[HiredGoon]

You could get a permit from another state that would cover you in DE. I believe UT still will do so. That is if you have the time before your trip. You'd need probably a couple months.

[Freddie]

You could get a permit from another state that would cover you in DE. I believe UT still will do so. That is if you have the time before your trip. You'd need probably a couple months.

Definitely something to consider down the road.. Likely won't happen in time for the trip, but the UT permit is honored by Delaware and Indiana, whereas the PA permit is not recognized by these states.

Also seems like a good idea to keep the gun on me whenever possible in states that recognize the PA permit. Not sure why I thought leaving in car at a hotel might be a better idea, but I am still adjusting to the issue of states that do recognize permits versus those that don't.

[donm]

If you are transporting your own firearm in someone else's vehicle, you are fine as long as you have a license and have control of the firearm.

If the owner of the vehicle is not licensed and doesn't meet another exception, he may not transport his firearm in the vehicle. However he may loan his firearm to you because you have a PA license (loans of firearms to unlicensed persons are prohibited), and you can transport his firearm in his vehicle.

... until you cross the state line. Then you play by their rules, and quoting Pennsylvania statutes to a New Jersey or Maryland trooper isn't likely to be very persuasive. In most states, transporting an unloaded handgun in a vehicle or borrowing one without a license is perfectly legal; in other states it's a felony. And FOPA only applies if the person doing the "transporting" (can you convince them that it's not the owner/driver?) is licensed to "carry" at both the origin and destination. No simple answer.