POSP range finder for AK

[esh21167]

Just ordered a red dot but am also curious about POSP scopes. Originally for Dragunov types, but I've seen many models available for AK mount.

Big question about the reticles though. Some have the 1000m Dragunov range finder and some have the 400m Simonov range finder. What I thought I researched and determined is the 1000m RF is calibrated for 7.62x54 and the 500RF for 7.62x39. But seems the models with variable mag and adjustable focus all have the 1000m RF. So I email three different ebay sellers and EastWave and get this exact same response from all the ebayers and the lower one (slightly different) from EastWave:

these scopes are not calibrated at all. For sharp shooting you have to calibrate the scope yourself using calibration knobs on the scope and ballistic tables from the manual. For testing purposes the manufacturer usually pre-calibrates the scopes for 7.62x39 caliber and if you use mostly this caliber then you don't need to do anything major but only to correct a possible inaccuracy caused from shipping. However, you may re-calibrate the scope for any caliber at any time.

POSP scopes are not calibrated at all ( these are real military scopes unlike cheap Asian retail products) . For sharp shooting you have to calibrate the scope yourself using calibration knobs on the scope and ballistic tables from the manual. For testing purposes the manufacturer usually pre-calibrates the scopes (all of them, with 1000m and 400m RF) for 7.62x39 caliber and if you use mostly this caliber then you don't need to do anything major but only to correct a possible inaccuracy caused from shipping. However, you may re-calibrate the scope for any caliber at any time.


So they first say they are not calibrated, then say they are calibrated for 7.62x39. Not sure what they mean by 'calibration', but I would think that just means zeroing the scope. And if you zero at given distance, you just document what compensation you may or may not need to do outside of elevation adjustment (or BDC) at any given distance.

Finally the big question : how will the 1000m rangefinder reticle work for 7.62x39? I'm thinking not that well because there are no bullet drop compensators until over 1000M! I'd have to adjust the elevation settings for anything over or under the original setting.

[Asmodeus6]

Kalinka optics is who I would ask. They would be the main importer of these optics for a long long time.

Could probably figure it out with my phone. The one ballistic app has the pso-1 scope in it. And it will put your ballistic data over the actual reticle from the scope. So I could simply punch in ballistic data from 7.62x39 and show you where it will end up at distances on the PSO-1 which we know is calibrated to 54R.

And just to be clear they are giving you CYA statements. The 1000m scopes are for 54r the 400 x39. You loosen the turrets and dial them in @ 0 then each distance reflects the adjustment for that round at a given distance. Confirmed by shooting at that distance. But its made to basically get you "on" at any distance the scope covers. You can use kentucky windage (the hash marks) to compensate for real wind. But the whole idea is conscript soldiers dont do math in their head and work in super sniper teams with ballistic calcs and spotters like they do in the US. The scope gets zero'd for a distance the rifle is shooting POA/POI and then the turrets do the work assuming you range the enemy properly with the provided ranging choke. (In the scope). Its cave man so anyone who can shoot and a little practice can get bullets on a man sized object at the guns effective range.

These are typically on an SVD or PSL so they are usually hustling 147gr loads or 7n1 which is 150gr. So that is most likely what they are calibrated / BC'd for. Almost all 7.62x39 is 123gr-125gr so that would be my guess on the simonov scopes.

Im going to go look for load data. Redownload the ballistic app and try to see where 7.62x39 falls on the PSO-1.

Ok this may be wrong but it should be relatively close-ish.

[esh21167]

You reinforced what I thought, because I kept finding sources that said the Drag RF reticle was for 54R and the user is supposed to use the turret adjustment up to 1000m, then the BDC chevrons for 1100, 1200, 1300m. Which is beyond AK and x39 range.

Your explanation and picture make things more clear. So the Drag reticle and BDC's can be used for x39 by shooting at a known distance and documenting where the BDC's actually place shots. I guess that's what 'calibrated for any caliber' means.

And I'm just guessing that your smartphone app puts you pretty close. Maybe I'm missing something but those calculations list 384, 546, and 670 yards. Those seem like really far ranges. I only say that because the Simonov's BDC's are in 100m increments.

Would the turret adjustments hold out for x39 on the 1000m reticle scope since it's designed for x54. If not, seems adjusting them would be futile. It would be a pain to adjust to different ranges and still have to compensate POA in the reticle. Adding that to what the BDC's actually do for you, seems going with the Drag reticle might be a bad idea.

If you could point me to that app, I'd like to explore that. I'll also email Kalinka. Thanks.

[Asmodeus6]

You reinforced what I thought, because I kept finding sources that said the Drag RF reticle was for 54R and the user is supposed to use the turret adjustment up to 1000m, then the BDC chevrons for 1100, 1200, 1300m. Which is beyond AK and x39 range.

Your explanation and picture make things more clear. So the Drag reticle and BDC's can be used for x39 by shooting at a known distance and documenting where the BDC's actually place shots. I guess that's what 'calibrated for any caliber' means.

And I'm just guessing that your smartphone app puts you pretty close. Maybe I'm missing something but those calculations list 384, 546, and 670 yards. Those seem like really far ranges. I only say that because the Simonov's BDC's are in 100m increments.

Would the turret adjustments hold out for x39 on the 1000m reticle scope since it's designed for x54. If not, seems adjusting them would be futile. It would be a pain to adjust to different ranges and still have to compensate POA in the reticle. Adding that to what the BDC's actually do for you, seems going with the Drag reticle might be a bad idea.

If you could point me to that app, I'd like to explore that. I'll also email Kalinka. Thanks.

The calculations are giving you reference points 'ON' the reticle. IE: The app is trying to give you points the reticle has established given the round and load data. I set it up with no wind and minimal weather compensation - zero @ 100 yards. .230 BC 123gr 2450 fps etc. Sight height over bore 2.5". (As sloppily measured with a POSP scope (PSL scope) laid on the AK scope rail and eye ball measured from the center of the barrel to the center of the scope. (Since it wouldn't clamp on I had to hold it and put a straight edge on the scope and rough measure the whole thing) My new phone has real baro, temp, altitude, and humidity sensors so I was amazed when the app pulled all that info and applied it - like I was using a kestrel.

The app is strelok ballistic calculator - it's an android app, not sure if it's on i-tunes too? I was using the free one, but there are some paid ones with even more scope reticles and settings. It is heavily supported by it's developer.

And yes, you could theoretically shoot an AK with the POSP / PSO type of scope and see where the bullet is at given ranges and how they match up with the chevrons on the scope. But if you saw the distances... you will see exactly why they have 2 versions. I would also assume that the turrets are representative of "X" bullet @ "X" meters. Meaning. Yeah, no... the whole purpose of the scope is going to be lost on you trying to use a different caliber.

But... if we apply the same caveman logic they did when making the scope. Use the choke range finder. Range the target. And 'know' the BDC of the drop chevrons... you could again, probably put rounds on a guy out to 500m with an AK in THEORY. Or close enough to seriously rattle his cage. And hell, with some magnification (These scopes are very head / eye position sensitive - but they are very clear!) instead of irons I'd guess you may have a better chance of doing it. Maybe on an RPK type of gun too. Something with a longer heavy barrel. You could probably walk the shots in if you had too.

Obviously the simonov reticle will be calibrated to 7.62x39. And so will the turrets. If you truly want a BDC scope you may have to suck it up and go that route. I have a PSL. So whatever I buy I would buy for that - and not the AK. But the 4x scope it came with will most likely get it's bottom mount swapped to an AK type so it can be used on an AK at some point.

So I'll get to "see" for real how 7.62x39mm stacks up on the 54R scope at some point.

[esh21167]

Thanks very much for your detailed help. The biggest reason I was considering the scope(s) with the Drag reticle is because they seem to be the only ones with variable magnification AND adjustable focus. I need reading glasses for close vision, so I think I'd need the adjustable focus option to use it without them.

Like you said, seems I'd be better off getting a scope with the Simonov reticle if I'm interested in using it as designed. There are some with adjustable focus but only in fixed magnification, so I"m thinking a 4x or 6x.

And thanks for your input on my red dot thread as well. I really appreciate your knowledge on the whole AK/sight/scope issue. In fact when I performed a google search for POSP/AK info an older thread of yours on here came up as a result. In my opinion, you are the resident expert! Gave you rep also!

[Asmodeus6]

Thanks very much for your detailed help. The biggest reason I was considering the scope(s) with the Drag reticle is because they seem to be the only ones with variable magnification AND adjustable focus. I need reading glasses for close vision, so I think I'd need the adjustable focus option to use it without them.

Like you said, seems I'd be better off getting a scope with the Simonov reticle if I'm interested in using it as designed. There are some with adjustable focus but only in fixed magnification, so I"m thinking a 4x or 6x.

And thanks for your input on my red dot thread as well. I really appreciate your knowledge on the whole AK/sight/scope issue. In fact when I performed a google search for POSP/AK info an older thread of yours on here came up as a result. In my opinion, you are the resident expert! Gave you rep also!

Thanks. I do a lot of reading. And I have read that supposedly the drag and simonov scopes work with either caliber. It just seemed impossible that two rounds that are completely different weights and speeds being fired out of two different length barrels would have the same BDC.

I feel you on the diopter settings. My eyesight has been junk since I was old enough to walk into stuff... thankfully I'm a good guesser. I divide the sight picture into sections my eye can divide to the center of and squeeze...


Anyway. I used the info found here for the 150gr BTSP (54r) to punch in to strelok and come up with a new overlay for the PSO-1. I added and divided the velocity measurements by 2 as most SVD / PSL's use a 24.5" barrel. And the ones given were a 20" and a 27". That should have split the difference close enough.




Keep in mind that is with no adjustments to the scope itself. That's a scope zero'd at 100yds shooting at 100yds.

And maybe I'm doing it wrong or missing something. As I'm fairly new to all of this - especially ballistic calculators. It just seemed like the easiest way to get an idea of where both calibers would fall on a scope and, well, pictures worth 1000 words.

[esh21167]

I've read the same thing. That both work with both, and other, calibers. But I agree with you that there is no way the BDC's can be used easily with different calibers. Your calculations seem to show that, and upon re-examining your numbers, equating those BDC ranges to what happens with a x54 at 1100+ meters probably makes those figures reasonable. So using the chevrons for quick adjustments becomes almost useless (i.e. where is the 300m aiming point?)

But by doing the calculations, and through shooting, one could arrive at different reticle reference points for many distances when using a different caliber, but again, that kind of defeats the whole purpose.

You can do the same thing with a mil-dot, knowing that's the expected process, and having distinct aiming points. At this time, I just want to go the 'conscript peasant' route to gain some magnification and accuracy, but knowing the limits of the AK and the x39 round.

If I get more serious in the future about distance shooting, I'll consider a .308 or x54r caliber rifle.

Thanks again.

[Asmodeus6]

One other thing you should factor in before you pull the trigger so to speak on a POSP type scope for the AK is maybe the leatherwood CMR.

I know you have to be in the price range if you are looking at higher magnification POSP type scopes. And they now make a version that is BDC for the 7.62x39mm round.

It's a 1-4x scope with a decent close range reticle and it's variable power. IDK how I feel about a 1-4 scope on an AK. But I was strongly considering it on a fixed stock variant I have that I wouldn't mind relegating to slower / scoped duty.

I was also considering popping the 4X LPS-TIP2 (POSP) PSL scope on it and buying good glass for the PSL instead. Which probably makes more sense financially.

But if you can get the 1-4 mounted on an AK well. I can't see any real downsides except weight. That's pretty much ideal for the 7.62x39mm round. I don't really see you being able to stretch it's legs beyond a 4x scope anyway. It also has all the ranging and choke features of the comm bloc stuff. With some good old fashioned hi lux features and - since they are known for building BDC scopes like this. I think it may be an awesome combo.

Had I kept my AR in 7.62x39mm there would probably already be one sitting on top of it.

Something else to ponder while you are poking around in scoped AK's and the like.

http://www.opticsplanet.com/leatherw...for-ak-47.html

[esh21167]

That Leatherwood does seem like another possible option. One reason I was looking at the POSP's is the ability to use iron sights with it mounted, so I need to look for possible options for that. Don't know if a side rail mount/adaptation is possible. One issue for me might be the lack of focus adjustment.

I have a side mount with a top rail, but with the particular one I have, I cannot see the iron sights with it mounted. Maybe others would be different.

Here's another option. POSP style with a mil-dot. Not as inherently user friendly as those with specific x39 BDC's, but would do the job: http://www.eastwave.ca/products/scop...4-10x42ak.html

I also considered the scout type option, as I currently have a quad rail fore-end, but that's another story.

[Asmodeus6]

Maybe one of the rs regulate mounts would do the trick? Then you can use whatever you want?