WWI 1911 with ground off serial number?

[smitty56]

An older guy is at the age where he is selling off his firearms and offered one of them to me for sale.
It is a really old 1911 that was US Property.
It has been in his family since the 1920s when his father bought it at a gun store in PA.
The issue? It has no serial number.
After WWI, a number of soldiers illegally brought home their 1911 firearms.
In an attempt to protect themselves, some of them ground or polished off the serial number and/or the US Property stampings/engravings.
Gun laws have changed a lot since then.

Today, because the FFL was well versed in early 1911's, he pointed out that he could not transfer or accept the weapon in any way because the serial number was intentionally obliterated. His interpretation of the law was that if there was NO number, he could engrave a temporary number under the grip. BUT, because it had been intentionally removed, the gun was now contraband and he could NOT put an ID number on it. The older guy still has it and could not transfer it. The gun is 100 years old and the number was removed 90 years ago. You have to know where the number was supposed to be and then look close to see marks where the number was polished/scratched off probably around 1920.

Searches this afternoon on the internet at 1911 web sites mention that BATFE can reissue a serial number for certain guns where the numbers were removed. Before calling BATFE, I was trying to find some link to a policy for this besides turning it in for destruction. Since this is quite a rare version 1911, does anyone have any experience with this problem or a solution?

Thanks,
Smitty56

[Sharkey]

An older guy is at the age where he is selling off his firearms and offered one of them to me for sale.
It is a really old 1911 that was US Property.
It has been in his family since the 1920s when his father bought it at a gun store in PA.
The issue? It has no serial number.
After WWI, a number of soldiers illegally brought home their 1911 firearms.
In an attempt to protect themselves, some of them ground or polished off the serial number and/or the US Property stampings/engravings.
Gun laws have changed a lot since then.

Today, because the FFL was well versed in early 1911's, he pointed out that he could not transfer or accept the weapon in any way because the serial number was intentionally obliterated. His interpretation of the law was that if there was NO number, he could engrave a temporary number under the grip. BUT, because it had been intentionally removed, the gun was now contraband and he could NOT put an ID number on it. The older guy still has it and could not transfer it. The gun is 100 years old and the number was removed 90 years ago. You have to know where the number was supposed to be and then look close to see marks where the number was polished/scratched off probably around 1920.

Searches this afternoon on the internet at 1911 web sites mention that BATFE can reissue a serial number for certain guns where the numbers were removed. Before calling BATFE, I was trying to find some link to a policy for this besides turning it in for destruction. Since this is quite a rare version 1911, does anyone have any experience with this problem or a solution?

Thanks,
Smitty56

Can't help you with new numbers but Man if she could talk .....

[harold63]

I don't think they give it a new number. There is supposed to be a way to distinguish what the number is even though it was ground off. If they cannot determine the original number, then it is contraband...at least that is how I understand it.

[streaker69]

It isn't just the missing serial number that makes it contraband, it was stolen from the US Military. I wouldn't want to have anything to do with it.

[bogey1]

It isn't just the missing serial number that makes it contraband, it was stolen from the US Military. I wouldn't want to have anything to do with it.

I dont know about that. Mine is marked united states property. Back in the day you could do such a thing, especially with captured weapons.
Its a shame the serial# was ground off. It could of been worth something.
Is it a singer sewing machine mfg?

[ScotsGuards]

I dont know about that. Mine is marked united states property. Back in the day you could do such a thing, especially with captured weapons.
Its a shame the serial# was ground off. It could of been worth something.
Is it a singer sewing machine mfg?

The US property mark is not an issue but the removed serial number is however. Pa. state law reads that any arm with an altered or obliterated serial number is illegal unless one can prove THE CURRENT POSSESSOR didn't do so. If an arm has never had a SN then ok; but changed or removed is bad. There are ways to retrieve/restore SNs to an arm sometimes but this can be expensive and difficult.

Bogey: The OP stated it was a WWI era 1911 pistol so no chance of it being a Singer as they were done just prior to the US entry into WWII.

[smitty56]

I dont know about that. Mine is marked united states property. Back in the day you could do such a thing, especially with captured weapons.
Its a shame the serial# was ground off. It could of been worth something.
Is it a singer sewing machine mfg?

Far worse, made in 1913 and only 500 made.

[bogey1]

Far worse, made in 1913 and only 500 made.

That would be a colt. And from my crystal ball, the lowest number made in that year was 349 units.

[bogey1]

Bogey: The OP stated it was a WWI era 1911 pistol so no chance of it being a Singer as they were done just prior to the US entry into WWII.

Pre- senior moment

[smitty56]

Far worse, made in 1913 and only 500 made.

Whoops, sorry, 1915, not 1913.
But then again, the exact serial is unknown. That guess was based on all the specific features.