Legality of Application for LTCF in Philadelphia

[BenFoo]

I am in the planning stages of applying for my LTCF for PA, but I live in Philadelphia. After reading though the PA-UFA as well as the PA Constitution, I'm pretty skeptial of how Philadelphia is doing its LTCF application process.

Can someone whom is more familiar with legal help me identify what IS and what ISNT legal about their application process?

Here is their application with instructions. I'll pull out the instructions for discussion: http://www.phillypolice.com/assets/d...pplication.pdf


Only applicants 21 years of age or older, residing in the county of Philadelphia, may apply for a Pennsylvania
license to carry a firearm through the Philadelphia Police Department.
Out of county residents must apply in their county of residence.
Out of state applications will only be considered if the applicant currently has a similar license from their home
state.

Seems Reasonable so far.....

1. Applications may be picked up at the Gun PermitsUnit,990 Spring Garden Street, 2nd Floor, Monday
through Friday, 8:30 AM to 2:00 PM. This Unit is Closed on Saturdays, Sundays and Holidays, and
from December 20th to January 3rd. Only 1 application per person. This Information can also be found
at the following website: www.phillypolice.com/forms
(If downloaded from internet applicant must bring all paperwork, including this instruction sheet.)

Seems nice if you don't have a printer at home. Why do I need the instruction sheet?

2. Applicants must have an APPLICATION AND TWO (2) REFERENCE SHEETS FILLED OUT
COMPLETELY and APPLICABLE ITEMS LISTED BELOW or they will not be accepted. (Do
not use pencil)

Why are there two reference sheets required? Doesn't that go against what is outlined in the UFA? Also, there is also a place for references on the single page PSP form.

3. When completed, the entire application must be returned IN PERSON BY THE APPLICANT to the
above location, Monday through Friday, 8:30 AM to 2:00 PM. (New applications and renewals will
only be handled during this time.)

Why must it be turned in, in person? There is no requirement, that I can find, that details it MUST be turned in this way according to the UFA

Also needed at this time of RENEWAL OR NEW APPLICATION:
a. One (1) 2” x 2 ” (inch) Passport Type color photo of the applicant’s head and shoulders, (NO
SUNGLASSES, HATS, VEILS, BANDANNAS, ETC.). I guess if they do not have a digital means of taking your picture for the LTCF card, this is reasonable
b. A $20.00 money order (no other amount will be accepted) payable to “City of Philadelphia”.
(NO CASH OR CHECKS WILL BE ACCEPTED.) Ok
c. A VALID Pennsylvania Drivers License or Non-Drivers ID, along with two (2) acceptable
forms of proof of residence, all addresses must match. NO PO BOXES WILL BE
ACCEPTED, (see back of this sheet for examples). Why would I need this many? Isnt a photo ID enough?
d. ALL APPLICANTS WILL BE FINGERPRINTED. Whoa...what? Why is this required?
e. If you were previously a member of the Armed Forces, a copy of your discharge papers (DD-
214) must accompany the application. Ok...but shouldnt they be able to find this out?
f. Foreign born applicants who are presently American citizens must bring their
naturalization papers, passports are not acceptable OK
g. Registered aliens must have their current alien registration identification card, i.e., GREEN
CARD and last 3 monthly utility bills, i.e., gas bill, PECO bill, water bill, etc. for proof of
residency. THESE 3 BILLS MUST BE THE SAME BILL AND IN CONSECUTIVE
MONTHLY ORDER OF THE MOST RECENT MONTH.
h. Must show current or expired permits at time of application. Expired permits to carry will be
retained by the Gun Permits Unit. mmm...ok?

4. NOTE: Failure to provide (2) references (NOT FAMILY MEMBERS), as required on your
application, will result in your application being denied, and forfeiture of your application fee. Enclosed
are two references information sheets that your references may use for their convenience. References
should include name, address, date of birth and PA State ID or drivers license number at the top of the
form. OK, so if i don't fill out the forms they will give me a written letter with a reason for denial? Sounds like it would be easy to appeal this? If they just turn you away for not having the forms, that isn't legal is it?

5. If all paperwork is in order, the applicant will then be interviewed by Gun Permits Unit personnel.
When the interview is completed, a state and local background investigation will be conducted to
ascertain if the applicant is acceptable under law, to be issued a “Pennsylvania license to carry a
firearm” Interview? Where is that outlined as a requirement in UFA?

6. All applicants will receive written notice by U.S. mail of either approval or disapproval of their
application for a Pennsylvania license to carry a firearm. Upon approval the applicant has thirty (30)
days to pick-up their License to Carry. OK
ALL APPLICANTS SHOULD BE AWARE THAT FALSE STATEMENTS (WHETHER ORAL OR
WRITTEN) WILL BE CAUSE FOR DENIAL AND MAY RESULT IN ARREST.
PLEASE NOTE THAT THE SAME PROCEDURES ARE APPLICABLE FOR RENEWALS.
Below are examples of, but not limited to, acceptable forms for proof of your residency:
· Current Utility Bills: (within the last three months)
o Phone Bill – Home/Cellular
o Electric Bill
o Gas Bill
o Water Bill
o Cable/Satellite Bill
· Current Credit Card Statements
· Current Bank/Student Loan Statements
· Valid Vehicle Registration
· Valid Vehicle Insurance Card
· Voters Registration Card
· JUNK MAIL IS NOT ACCEPTABLE
Why do I need to bring in my mail again?




The application itself is 4 (four) pages if you print some of them front/back. Doesnt that go against what is outline in:

18 Pa.C.S. § 6109: Licenses (c) Form of application and content.--The application for a license to carry a firearm shall be uniform throughout this Commonwealth and shall be on a form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. The form may contain provisions, not exceeding one page, to assure compliance with this section. Issuing authorities shall use only the application form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police.

Or am I just dense?






So what am I missing here? Why hasn't anyone else challenged this (that I know of)? What am I in for for trying to follow the state rather than the municipal instructions?

[bigdawgbeav]

I think most folks don't challenge because they know that trying to fight a corrupt city would be pointless.

The other part that's missing is that the GPU doesn't adhere to the 45 DAYS rule... hell, they don't adhere to 45 business days like they claim.

On top of that the LTCF is supposed to be issued by the County Sheriff... the PPD decided to make their own rules that are hard to challenge because they all work for the city. Whereas the County Sheriff is an elected official. I would imagine if the Sheriff of Philadelphia County was issuing the LTCF's the would get done much quicker if he/she wanted to keep getting re-elected.

And everything you question is against the law. you don't need your own pictures, no fingerprints, no interviews w/ detectives, no reference sheets, no dd-214, no utility bills. I live in Bucks County, in and out in 20 minutes with my LTCF, every time.

[BenFoo]

On top of that the LTCF is supposed to be issued by the County Sheriff... the PPD decided to make their own rules that are hard to challenge because they all work for the city. Whereas the County Sheriff is an elected official. I would imagine if the Sheriff of Philadelphia County was issuing the LTCF's the would get done much quicker if he/she wanted to keep getting re-elected.

Sadly I think this part IS legal as far as I can tell, as Philadelphia is a "city of the first class"

18 Pa.C.S. § 6109: Licenses
(b) Place of application.--An individual who is 21 years of age or older may apply to a sheriff for a license to carry a firearm concealed on or about his person or in a vehicle within this Commonwealth. If the applicant is a resident of this Commonwealth, he shall make application with the sheriff of the county in which he resides or, if a resident of a city of the first class, with the chief of police of that city.

As such, I believe the CoP has established the GPU to issue (or not) on his behalf.


--edit---

Everything else you said is correct though. CoP is an appointed position instead of an elected official like a Sheriff.

[Curmudgeon]

I honestly believe most folks don't fight it because they really want their permit and will do anything to get it.

And I do mean anything. Many have said as much. "If you want the permit this is what you have to do."

[BenFoo]

I honestly believe most folks don't fight it because they really want their permit and will do anything to get it.

And I do mean anything. Many have said as much. "If you want the permit this is what you have to do."

Yes, I had an administrator i spoke to at the PSP tell me that as well.

She said that i was voluntarily submitting this information and that if I didnt want to provide the information they requested then I need not apply. I replied that its not voluntary when I have to do it to "legally" carry a firearm for self-defense. Also that I am afford the right to bare arms for defense by both US and PA Constitution. So, I wouldnt call it voluntary. This is when the call pretty much ended.


For those that are unaware of what the PA Constitution says:

http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Constitution.html

Right to Bear Arms
Section 21.

The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.

I would argue that background checks and having to acquire a LTCF would both be considered being "questioned". I guess its all in how you interpret the law.....

[Ckygo-go]

I'm still waiting for mine & i applied in Sept 2012 was denied for Philly reasons not State or Federal Ones. I appealed, went to L&I in March 2013 was told I had a warrant for traffic tixs, Get that taken car of & i would be good to go. I did! but then i was told that my State ID is no good because my license is suspended. Then i called back with a letter from PennDot & a email from the Chief Counsel of the State Police saying that as long as the date isn't expired my ID is valid! But i was told by the GPU they will take mt ID & i still can't have my LTCF. I went to IA filled out a complaint they are investigating it, I am preparing a lawsuit with my lawyer all the while the GPU says that now i'm going to have another appeals hearing! All i can say is WOW, WOE, & WTF!

[bluetrane2028]

MOVE OUT OF PHILADELPHIA.

[BenFoo]

MOVE OUT OF PHILADELPHIA.

My house is currently for sale. As soon as it sells I will be moving out of Philadelphia. BUT until then, I'm here.


I thought I would try and help all those who may not have the option to move. Seems like that's something we should all be doing, don't you think? Helping each other....

[Nullifidian]

f. Foreign born applicants who are presently American citizens must bring their
naturalization papers, passports are not acceptable OK

NO. Not ok.

They said "foreign born". Not "naturalized citizens". For example, I was born in a foreign country, but my mother is and always was an American citizen. I was born an American citizen on foreign soil.

But under their wording, they'd ask for my "naturalization papers". I have none. I was born a citizen of the United States. Naturalization papers are only for those who become naturalized citizens. My passport, and the passport of ANY citizen should suffice. End of story.

[kadar]

Without having constitional carry what is needed from legislature is a definitive manual on the process and procedure of approving a LTCF. Being a state license there should be no difference from one county to another.
The other thing I have suggested on here many times is removal of the second sentence of 6109(b) allowing residents to apply in any county not just their home county.