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  1. #1
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    Default Military vs. Self defense training

    After seperating from the military, I started looking at firearms training that is available to civilians. I had taken a few classes prior to the military and truly believe that fighting skills are perishable, so getting my feet wet in commercial training seemed natural.

    I have noticed interestingly the type of training that SEEMS to be popular is fairly hardcore military fighting tactics. This sort of seems to parallel the zombie preparedness stuff as well to some extent.

    There are significant differences between the goals of 'military' type training and self defense oriented training. For the sake of discussion ill loosely define the goal of 'military' training as giving the ability to operate offensively or defensively against a well armed formidable foe, normally working as a team but possibly (worst case scenario) solo (perhaps in an escape and evade type situation), and covering subjects like room clearing, hostage rescue, flanking etc... And ill define the goal 'self defense' training to give the individual a set of tactics that are applicable in a 'civil' situation, like defending your self, property or family against looters for example, or defending from several aggressive but not necessarily well trained or armed adversaries.

    That being said, many of the weapons manipulation techniques will be similar if not identical between the two types of training.

    What interests me is the reasoning behind civilians seeking military type training. Is it to prepare for a true 'SHTF/Zombie' scenario? Is it for the the thrill of a true military style training experience? Do you just want the most complete training and plan to scale what you learn to different situations?

    I am curious to see what kind of a market there is for different kinds of training and how it has changed over the past 5 years.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

    I think it comes down to what one considers a qualified instructor. Some believe that unless the instructor has used the weapon in question in a shootout, then they are not qualified to teach others to do so. If one seeks training in the effective deployment of a carbine, and their opinion of qualification is as stated above, then they are more likely to find qualified instructors of a military background. I imagine the percentage of LEOs that match the criteria are slim.

    If the same criteria are applied to handguns, then LEOs are more likely to be qualified, the handgun being most police officers' primary weapon. The members of the military that carry a handgun are slim, and those most would consider experts even more slim.

    I myself imagine having to use a carbine in a situation like the Korean shopkeepers in New Orleans. Order breaks down and mayhem ensues. Locking yourself in the house in a defensive posture is a poor option. Longer range shots than are practical with a handgun may be necessary. I may have to fire at hostiles that have taken cover or concealment. I may need the option of a higher capacity magazine and higher controllable cyclic rate to engage or supress multiple attackers.

    I imagine a hangun to be useful for defense against one or two similarly armed attackers that threaten my defensive area, whether it be my safety while outside or inside my home.

    I persue miltary style training as well because I am currently a military member and weapons usage training provided by the military is inadequate when one is not in a combat arms MOS. The only proper weapons training available to me is from non-DOD tactical instructors.
    Last edited by Keith A; June 6th, 2013 at 06:07 AM. Reason: spelling

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

    That makes a lot of sense, literally 'vetting' the instructor. Its unfortunate misconception however, one of the best classes I ever took was run by Sheriff Ken Campbell. He most certainly has applicable firearms experience, just not in a military setting.

    I would consider the Korean shopkeeper situation a 'SHTF' type scenerio! I can certainly see where working as a team and using military tactics would be beneficial in that type of environment.

    Even in combat arms, you are lucky when you have a really knowledgeable leader instructing you. When I was in leadership position, and responsible for firearms training, I pulled hard from my experience from civilians schools. That combined with practical experience in Afghanistan served me pretty well.

    The military does outsource firearms training as well. They sent a large group to Tactical Ranch near El Paso for a week long carbine course.. I wish I could have gone! I did however have the opportunity to take a 2 week course from the asymmetrical warfare group, which was run much like a civilian school.. but we conducted it just outside the wire of a large FOB, which meant we had little 'range-isms'. The AWG course was outstanding and still technically a military course.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

    It's all bullshit. And much of it is marketing.

    People dressing up (especially out-of-shape middle aged men) and playing army.

    I curse the GWOT for the influence it has brought to bear in the private sector training industry. It should be about "what people need" vs. "what people want" because most often, people don't know what they need and therefore seek "what they want".

    The Ken Campbell example is illustrative of this phenomenon. It doesn't get much better than Ken (and his contemporaries).

    Zombies? Please.

    Social disorder? Define that in the context of SW PA? Hurricanes? No. Tornadoes? Hardly. Tsunami? No. Earthquake? No. Snow storm? A day or two, maybe.

    Anyone a diabetic or have some other such illness that requires refrigerated storage of your medicine? Anyone have a newborn with all the post natal care they require? Where will you get your high blood pressure medication? Where will my mom get the creon enzyme she needs to digest the food she eats in her post pancreatic cancer state?

    If it ever gets so bad that we need to grab our AR15's and don a chest rig or worse, a plate carrier, getting shot by "looters" is going to be the least of your worries.

    The sense of insecurity that seems to infect much of the gun owning public (especially these gun forums) is pervasive and curious.

    People have been "prepping" since the 1970's and nothing has happened. Can you and should you arrange to survive a short term local or regional scenario? Certainly.

    A national or global scenario? Good luck, cuz you're gonna need a metric ton of it to survive.

    Edit: BTW, great topic.
    Last edited by TonyF; June 6th, 2013 at 08:25 AM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

    I'll throw my $.02 in here.

    I see a lot of different types of people in my classes. I get some military, some law enforcement, and mostly civilians.

    One of the things I try to do at each of my classes is ask everyone a simple question: "Why are you here?". I've learned that people take training classes for a lot of reasons.

    Some people honestly want to learn how to use a firearm, be it a pistol, revolver, shotgun, AR what have you, in a safe and correct manner, learn the fundamentals of marksmanship from a qualified professional, and gain the skills to use their weapon correctly.

    Quite frankly, I wish there were a hell of a lot more people that fell into the above category, particularly those folks who have a CCW permit and have never obtained professional training.

    I've had military guys home on leave attend a course who were going to deploy back overseas in the near future, and they want to maintain and enhance their skills. Very cool.

    I've had police officers and constables who want to enhance their skills in case the day ever comes when they need those skills. Rock on.

    I've also had people tell me that they just enjoy shooting and go to classes because it's their hobby, they enjoy themselves, and have fun. I have no issue with this mindset at all.

    I'm very tired of the whole "zombie" nonsense. Honest to god, enough already. I watch The Walking Dead - because it's a good TV show. But it's entertainment, and it's fictional entertainment at that. Some folks really need to get a grip. And grow up.

    Doomsday Preppers. Nothing wrong with being prepared for anything, but thinking the end of the world is around the corner drives some people crazy, and they take it to extremes. Being prepared is one thing - being paranoid is another.

    Is there an element of people out there who like to wear plate carriers and all the other tactical gear just for the sake of doing it? Yes, there is. It is very unlikely that your average civilian will ever find himself in a situation where he need to don a plate carrier and ballistic helmet. Extremely unlikely. Quite frankly, some of these people just want to play "dress up". If they fall into the category above as far as they look at shooting and taking training classes as a hobby, and truly do it for fun because it's something they enjoy to do, I don't have a problem with it. When they get into the whole zombie and doomsday crowd, it tends to get a little excessive.

    The flip side is that if you are going to attend training classes, you need to have some gear. For example, for my 2 day AR course I require all students to be able to carry at least two AR magazines somewhere on their body. I don't care if it's on a belt or some kind of chest rig or plate carrier set up, as long as they can carry at least 2 magazines. So with a lot of folks, they are wearing kit because it's a requirement of the course they are taking.

    Now, into specifics aspects of firearms / tactical training......................

    I very rarely train anyone any differently based upon who they are or what their job is. I pretty firmly believe that a gunfight is a gunfight, regardless of location. There isn't a whole lot of difference between being shot at in Baghdad or Khandahar or on Main Street USA. Somebody shooting at you is somebody shooting at you.

    Properly drawing and presenting a pistol is no different for a SEAL or an SF soldier than it is for Joe Average citizen with a CCW permit. It's exactly the same thing.

    Using proper technique when reloading the AR doesn't change with who actually happens to be holding the weapon. I teach the exact same reloading technique to civilians that I teach to military and law enforcement.

    The bottom line for me is this - obtaining professional firearms training is a good thing for all gun owners, whether you carry a gun as part of your job, or you are a civilian with a CCW permit. Some do go a little overboard and like to play dress up with all the tactical gear and accessories. Keep things in perspective.

    John

    http://www.3riverstraining.com
    Last edited by John A Brown; June 6th, 2013 at 09:12 AM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

    Quote Originally Posted by John A Brown View Post
    Properly drawing and presenting a pistol is no different for a SEAL or an SF soldier than it is for Joe Average citizen with a CCW permit. It's exactly the same thing.

    Using proper technique when reloading the AR doesn't change with who actually happens to be holding the weapon. I teach the exact same reloading technique to civilians that I teach to military and law enforcement.
    I agree, but to add to what you are saying.. On the subject of gear and weapons manipulations similarities:
    If I was going to train a SEAL or SF (cuz im obviously just that bad-ass..), I would not advocate him practicing his reloads from his jeans back pocket if he is going to be fighting with a plate carrier. He might discover (at a very inopportune time) that his mag pouches on his carrier dont work the way he expected. While it may be beneficial for him to know how to reload from a pocket, this is a contingency and his core skill should probably focus on operating with the kit he plans to fight with.

    In much the same vain, for people serious about firearms training I would advocate to train as you would fight.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyF View Post
    It's all bullshit. And much of it is marketing.

    People dressing up (especially out-of-shape middle aged men) and playing army.

    I curse the GWOT for the influence it has brought to bear in the private sector training industry. It should be about "what people need" vs. "what people want" because most often, people don't know what they need and therefore seek "what they want".
    I'm not sure I follow you.

    I've trained with the follow folks, who you could easily associated with the GWOT (most participated in it):
    Larry Vickers
    Kyle Defoor
    Northern Red

    Not once did we cover squad tactics, flanking maneuvers, or ambushes.

    What we did cover was how to run a gun to the best of our abilities.

    What's the problem with GWOT veterans teaching people how to shoot again?

    The following guys are doing the same thing - teaching marksmanship and shooting lessons learned and verified during the GWOT:
    Invictus Alliance
    John McPhee
    Mike Pannone
    Pat MacNamara
    TigerSwan

    So, where is all of this dress up training at which you are blaming the GWOT for?

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyF View Post

    People have been "prepping" since the 1970's and nothing has happened. Can you and should you arrange to survive a short term local or regional scenario? Certainly.

    There have been nut-cases in hair shirts walking the streets with signs saying "THE END IS NIGH" as long as there have been streets. I cannot count all the deadlines for the end of the world - or at least the end of the world as we know it - that have come and gone during my lifetime.

    Some people just need crisis in order to give them a reason to get up in the morning. I think it shameful when people exploit this (or any other) mental disorder in order to sell stuff; but otherwise it's not my problem.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

    OK, Zombies... When they come you guys will shit your pants. But until then, Zombies is a way of talking about "bad times" or "bad people" and not having people want to call the police on you cause your some kind of a gun nut. Talk about killing Zombies, and the average person is OK with this. If your prepared for the Zombie Apocalypse, well, then your probably prepared for any natural or unnatural disaster that may arise. Zombies are fun. Live with it.

    As for guys showing up with "gear". Hell, what is the difference between a guy showing up with plates and body armor and more mags than you can shake a stick at then the guy who has spent $2000 on a rifle with all the goodies. Both are extreme. But if they want to do it, more power to them. $1000 optics, $200 for folding sights, $200 for handguards... It is all extreme and way more than any of us probably will ever need. But I see firearms like this all over the place. And get recommendations buy those that teach classes to buy them cause you want the best.

    Most likely none of us will ever have the need for a firearm to defend ourselve our entire lives. But there is always that "what if" factor. Your right, Zombies probably won't show up in this life time, and the government won't fall, and on and on. But tell those things to the people during the LA Riots. I bet it sure felt like the end of the world. Tell that to the people in Lousiana. We may not have a hurricane or a earthquake. But we have had ice storms just a couple hours north of us that have rendered areas totally shut down for weeks on end (the preppers probably rode it out pretty smoothly while many others struggled badly). We have had two airplanes flown into two buildings bringing them down killing thousands of people in a matter of minutes. We had an airplane crash just 45 minutes from my house that same day.

    How can some of you thnk that we will "never" have a need to protect ourselves or that we will never need the gear and training to do it. I call bullshit.

    Just because it has never happened, doesn't mean it can't. I don't wear a seatbelt because I plan on getting into a wreck, I wear one just in case. I don't carry a pistol daily cause I think I'll need it. I carry it just in case. I don't think the government is going to fall and our country will see another civil war. But by god, just in case, I'm going to try and be prepared. And just like the preppers out there, none of us want to see this world fall apart. But if it does... there is going to be an awful lot of us wishing we had prepared.

    I personally feel some of you are a bit arrogant for thinking there is NO WAY that something could possibly happen. Your not different than the anti gun person that thinks your crazy for carrying a handgun daily (What do you need that for, your never going to need it?)
    The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control....
    The day they want my guns, they'll have to bring theirs!!!
    Proud to be One of the 3%

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectre6 View Post
    That makes a lot of sense, literally 'vetting' the instructor. Its unfortunate misconception however, one of the best classes I ever took was run by Sheriff Ken Campbell. He most certainly has applicable firearms experience, just not in a military setting.

    I would consider the Korean shopkeeper situation a 'SHTF' type scenerio! I can certainly see where working as a team and using military tactics would be beneficial in that type of environment.

    Even in combat arms, you are lucky when you have a really knowledgeable leader instructing you. When I was in leadership position, and responsible for firearms training, I pulled hard from my experience from civilians schools. That combined with practical experience in Afghanistan served me pretty well.

    The military does outsource firearms training as well. They sent a large group to Tactical Ranch near El Paso for a week long carbine course.. I wish I could have gone! I did however have the opportunity to take a 2 week course from the asymmetrical warfare group, which was run much like a civilian school.. but we conducted it just outside the wire of a large FOB, which meant we had little 'range-isms'. The AWG course was outstanding and still technically a military course.
    I mentioned the "vetting" of the instructor because it seems to be a primary criteria on some of the forums I have lurked around that focus on "tactical training". I myself don't think that having been in or survived gunfights is of necessary importance. I'm sure there were certain things learned from those incidents, but having gunfight experience is probably the least important measure of experience or ability of an instructor. An awful lot of guys that killed the bad guys and went home that day were trained by guys who had no real gunfighting experience at all. Those instructors that had that experience may be able to pass on their experiences to students, but no one knows how they or someone else is going to react until the situation presents itself. Luck plays into as well. Just because the bad guys missed one guy and hit the other doesn't mean the dead guy did anything wrong, or wasn't as good with his gun or as well trained as the guy who lived.

    I think it would benefit the military greatly if they did more outsourcing as far as gun training goes. I was active duty infantry at one time and wish there were options for additional training. Yeah, the high speed guys in certain units got the good training, and the rest of us were left to lay in the dirt and "sharpshoot" with our M16s. The combat-focused training was so tradition and safety oriented as to be unrealistic, and often times laughable.

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