Military vs. Self defense training

[TonyF]

The reason why many people prefer the flip down sights is because high quality red dot optics - Aimpoint, Trijicon, NOT EoTurd - almost never fail. I'm never had a single problem with any Aimpont I've owned.

If you are using an optic and you have either a fixed rear sight or your folding rear sight in the up position, it will obstruct your view to some degree. This isn't a matter of opinion - it's a visual fact. You will have a better - meaning unobstructed - field of view when looking through the optic if the rear sight is not in your line of sight.

Some say it doesn't bother them. That's not the same thing as saying it doesn't happen or that the obstruction doesn't exist. Again, there is no debate here - having the rear sight as part of your sight picture when using an optic will obstruct your view to some degree.

Many people like the lower 1/3 co-witness. I do not. I can't stand it, and I feel like I have to change my cheek weld when going from the dot to the irons.

I use absolute co-witness on all of my Aimpoints.

For the record, I use aimpoints exclusively. I don't like a fixed rear BUIS for the reasons you've outlined but it's not an "absolute" show stopper.

The issue with fold down rear sights is that in the unlikely event my aimpoint does fail, the ocular lens of the aimpoint can be used as a ghost ring rear sight and one can easily get hits out to 30 yards with an absolute cowitness. Once an "opportunity" presents itself, the rear sight can be deployed.

I also can't stand a lower 1/3 cowitness. I really don't understand the logic because several generations of riflemen and soldiers dating back to WW2 did not seem to be affected by the front sight post and wings obstructing their view of the target.

You and I seem to have a few things in common.

[John A Brown]

For the record, I use aimpoints exclusively. I don't like a fixed rear BUIS for the reasons you've outlined but it's not an "absolute" show stopper.

The issue with fold down rear sights is that in the unlikely event my aimpoint does fail, the ocular lens of the aimpoint can be used as a ghost ring rear sight and one can easily get hits out to 30 yards with an absolute cowitness. Once an "opportunity" presents itself, the rear sight can be deployed.

I also can't stand a lower 1/3 cowitness. I really don't understand the logic because several generations of riflemen and soldiers dating back to WW2 did not seem to be affected by the front sight post and wings obstructing their view of the target.

You and I seem to have a few things in common.

Agreed Tony - it's not an absolute show stopper, but it exists and it's something I'd rather not deal with.

Good point also about using the Aimpoint itself as a ghost ring in a pinch.

John

http://www.3riverstraining.com

[Spectre6]

Ill definitely agree on Aimpoints durability. I had a T-1 that I beat on pretty hard overseas, and now it has a new home on my personal rifle.. Still going strong. I have to kick my rifle around in some sand and rock so it matches the T-1..

I have a low profile Midwest industries BUIS that I am really fond of.

That is a very interesting point about absolute co-witness. I may have to change my ways! Normally you would have to pay for a class to get advice like this...

[John A Brown]

Ill definitely agree on Aimpoints durability. I had a T-1 that I beat on pretty hard overseas, and now it has a new home on my personal rifle.. Still going strong. I have to kick my rifle around in some sand and rock so it matches the T-1..

I have a low profile Midwest industries BUIS that I am really fond of.

That is a very interesting point about absolute co-witness. I may have to change my ways! Normally you would have to pay for a class to get advice like this...

This is what forums such as this are all about - sharing information.

John

www.3riverstraining.com

[synergy]

The reason why many people prefer the flip down sights is because high quality red dot optics - Aimpoint, Trijicon, NOT EoTurd - almost never fail. I'm never had a single problem with any Aimpont I've owned.

I've personally experienced both Aimpoint and Eotech failures on weapons I was shooting... I trust nothing to be there (100%) that depends on batteries/ circuitry to be visible.

If you are using an optic and you have either a fixed rear sight or your folding rear sight in the up position, it will obstruct your view to some degree. This isn't a matter of opinion - it's a visual fact. You will have a better - meaning unobstructed - field of view when looking through the optic if the rear sight is not in your line of sight.

Which is like saying rear view mirrors lead to increased rates of frontal car accidents because they obstruct forward vision.

Your barrel obstructs vision too.

Lift your head up if you need to, or lower the rifle.

Some say it doesn't bother them. That's not the same thing as saying it doesn't happen or that the obstruction doesn't exist. Again, there is no debate here - having the rear sight as part of your sight picture when using an optic will obstruct your view to some degree.

Is that the end of the world? It's a trade off.

Many people like the lower 1/3 co-witness. I do not. I can't stand it, and I feel like I have to change my cheek weld when going from the dot to the irons.

I use absolute co-witness on all of my Aimpoints.

I have no use for an absolute cowitness as that effectively raises the front sight post and obstructs just as much of your FOV (or more) as does looking over top of your front/rear sights in a lower 1/3 cowitness.

I prefer to see an unobstructed dot, and like being able to drop into my irons with no breaking grip on the gun... a lower 1/3 cowitness with upright sights does that for me.

[John A Brown]

You like the lower 1/3. I don't. Nothing wrong with that.

Different strokes for different folks.

And I never said anything was the end of the world. I was providing information to folks who are new to this stuff and contrasting the the two most popular types of co-witness.

John

www.3riverstraining.com

[Hawk]

I'm looking for a good rear sight. Please, someone suggest one that locks up and down without my having to spend $119 on a rear sight by Troy. There have to be good ones a bit cheaper without buying junk. This is one thing I need right away. Please help.

Yankee Hill - Locks in up position.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/124...aluminum-matte

(For few less dollars)
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/ARR-9680

[Hawk]

The reason why many people prefer the flip down sights is because high quality red dot optics - Aimpoint, Trijicon, NOT EoTurd - almost never fail. I'm never had a single problem with any Aimpont I've owned.

If you are using an optic and you have either a fixed rear sight or your folding rear sight in the up position, it will obstruct your view to some degree. This isn't a matter of opinion - it's a visual fact. You will have a better - meaning unobstructed - field of view when looking through the optic if the rear sight is not in your line of sight.

Some say it doesn't bother them. That's not the same thing as saying it doesn't happen or that the obstruction doesn't exist. Again, there is no debate here - having the rear sight as part of your sight picture when using an optic will obstruct your view to some degree.

Many people like the lower 1/3 co-witness. I do not. I can't stand it, and I feel like I have to change my cheek weld when going from the dot to the irons.

I use absolute co-witness on all of my Aimpoints.

+1 Feel the same way...

[Chuck S]

I've had a heck of time getting the iron sights on the lower rifle to fold down. Absolutely no need for them to fold, of course, as they don't get in the way at all and are always there. Nothing to flip up (or down).



-- Chuck

[Mtbkski]

I never knew that about full co witnessing the front sight, and being able to use the optic as the ghost ring for up close shooting. Very interesting.

And just to let everyone know. I just ordered a "folding" rear sight from Troy(trumpets blare, church bells ring all thru the valley) to replace my junk one.