Military vs. Self defense training

[justashooter]

The true test of the training is to be the last man/woman standing.

this assumes that you are unable to structure the contest so that there is no need to come to conflict.

Sun Tzu teaches that we should take the high ground in surprise and impose ourselves upon the enemy in such that they forfeit the field and yield to us, for we appear wherever they think we will not, again not appearing where they think we will, moving like the water, seeking the natural path, and as we move effortlessly cutting the rock with our softness, the very essence of our nature that makes us invulnerable, yielding in it's own need as required by the tao...

[Mtbkski]

Training is good as long as it is well done and relevant to your needs. The true test of the training is to be the last man/woman standing. I am all for good training, doesnt have to be great or earth shattering. Ther eal test of training is that it sticks and that you survive. Along with all the really good trainers that give a damn and really develop a good/great program you have many more that are in it for the buck and teach you crap that will get you hurt or killed in actual application.

I think what most people fail to realize is that you aren't going to take a class and be good at it. You are there to learn what you need to do. How to do it correctly. Now it is time for you to PRACTICE these skills.

Nice thing about a sight like this one, is that you get feedback on the courses from those that have taken them. If the class was so so. Some one will say so. If the class was worth the money. Someone will again say so.

I also like how a lot of the classes will do write ups on the courses afterwords so you can actually hear about what went on and what they did. It gives you a chance to read about the class to see (via reading and thru pics) what went on and to find out if it is of any interest to you.

I have also learned that just because one person says you should do it this way, doesn't mean that everyone feels the same way. And that doesn't mean that they are wrong. They may have just found a different way to do something that "works" for them, and as such, are sharing that. It may not work for you, but it may work for someone else in the group. That is one reason that I like to take classes off of different organizations.

I learned this years ago, while taking ski lessons. One instructor would say to do it this way. And I would have problems doing it. Then I would take another lesson off another instructor who would say to do it differently, but that way worked great for me.





And John, despite the attempt to derail the thread. It really is a educational thread and is getting a lot of attention. But it is that same attention that draws some people to it, that don't have anything to really say that relates but just have to be part of it.

[Spectre6]

somehow i am not surprised. lots of newbies make the mistake of paying too much for something that is no better than the basics, but has a lot of shit cobbled onto it. some even go to the trouble of doing their own cobbling, thinking that they are improving the item. can't think of a single gun that i have a "rail" on. got a couple of fences that have rails down in the pasture...

I fail to see how a colt 6920, with an aimpoint and a flashlight is 'lots of shit'.. Infact I didn't even have a flashlight on it until I took some training and discovered what a pain it is to use a handheld light.

This is borderline trolling, and frankly there is a reason people use the term 'know it all' as a bad thing. You have offered nothing constructive, your comments amount to you informing everyone how dumb and unqualified they are.. And that you seem to be the only intelligent one.

Most all of us have been constructive and had open minds, we have been receptive an cordial and your behavior is childish and makes you look pretty bad. Clearly you care a great deal about what people think of you, otherwise you would not continue to contribute to a thread you completely disagree with.

[DennisH82]

this assumes that you are unable to structure the contest so that there is no need to come to conflict.

Sun Tzu teaches that we should take the high ground in surprise and impose ourselves upon the enemy in such that they forfeit the field and yield to us, for we appear wherever they think we will not, again not appearing where they think we will, moving like the water, seeking the natural path, and as we move effortlessly cutting the rock with our softness, the very essence of our nature that makes us invulnerable, yielding in it's own need as required by the tao...

I am more of a fair fight is for losers kind of guy, so shooting you at the maximum effective range works for me plus, I am old so running and getting sweaty doesn't work for me.

As for Sun Tsu that's all nice and peachy but no plan survives so while someone is reciting Sun Tzu you kick him in the balls and take his stuff.

[TonyF]

this assumes that you are unable to structure the contest so that there is no need to come to conflict.

Sun Tzu teaches that we should take the high ground in surprise and impose ourselves upon the enemy in such that they forfeit the field and yield to us, for we appear wherever they think we will not, again not appearing where they think we will, moving like the water, seeking the natural path, and as we move effortlessly cutting the rock with our softness, the very essence of our nature that makes us invulnerable, yielding in it's own need as required by the tao...

"Yours ..... is the superior intellect".

I'm beginning to question why you even bother to grace us with your presence.

[Gun]

I am more of a fair fight is for losers kind of guy, so shooting you at the maximum effective range works for me plus, I am old so running and getting sweaty doesn't work for me.

As for Sun Tsu that's all nice and peachy but no plan survives so while someone is reciting Sun Tzu you kick him in the balls and take his stuff.

Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.

~Mike Tyson

[Hawk]

I think what most people fail to realize is that you aren't going to take a class and be good at it. You are there to learn what you need to do. How to do it correctly. Now it is time for you to PRACTICE these skills.

I'd like to borrow the statement in bold and ask a question to stimulate ones mind and the thread.

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not new to the arena of training in a "system" of mental and physical techniques to achieve some goal. I've studied, practiced, competed, and taught several different styles of martial arts for 16+ years. My original goal was self-defense, later that would change.

When I first started training back in 1984 (I was 27), I was a very naive regarding self-defense and martial arts. I took at face value everything that was taught to me. The phrase "this was the right way" or "this was the best way" to do something was always emphasized by the instructors. In practice (on the mat) it worked, so I had no issues with the training. After about 5 years of training 3 times a week 52 weeks a year something happened in a class that blew my mind and my outlook on my training for the rest of my MA career. Someone executed a simple attack that you might experience in a "real" fight and I didn't have a response for it.

I began searching for another "style" of MA's that would provide me with a skill set that would include more practical self-defense applications. I studied over the next 10 years 3 different MA's. Each time I thought this is the one, only to eventually learn that no matter what I was taught, most of it (not all of it) was not much more than something someone made up at some point and said to themselves this is the "best way".

My point is, and my question is, with regards to firearm training, how the hell does one determine what the "best" way is? IMHO, it's all subjective. How can anyone prove it's the "best" or "right" way to do something? The only way it can be proved is in it's measurable and repeatable success in real life application's. Does that data exit? If not, then how can anyone claim it's the "best" or even the "right" way to do something?

[Mtbkski]

somehow i am not surprised. lots of newbies make the mistake of paying too much for something that is no better than the basics, but has a lot of shit cobbled onto it. some even go to the trouble of doing their own cobbling, thinking that they are improving the item. can't think of a single gun that i have a "rail" on. got a couple of fences that have rails down in the pasture...

But that is normal. If someone buys a gun, they have no idea what it needs. And as far as needs, I mean what is really important.

Looking at magazines, you would think that you have to buy lots. And lets face it, when you first get it, it is fun buying "stuff" for your new toy.

Eventually you do settle down and realize that you may not need all that "stuff" after all. But every class I have gone too, you find that a good optic and a good light are really important. Not required, but it sure does making engaging targets under certain conditions a lot easier. And having shot my last class HOLDING my light. I think that a rail that you can mount a light to is a important thing to have. It sucked trying to hold my rifle, and my light and engage a target. Possible, but it sucked.

I'm sure you can mount things you want or need on your rifle without a rail. It just gives you much more options on where to mount them.

[Hawk]

Let me relate a story to my previous post. I shoot and compete in CMP and NRA HP (self taught). I was on the range one day practicing and some friends were practicing a drill involving hitting a 3/4 scale silhouette steel target at 50 yards with 2 magazine changes and a change of shooting position from standing to kneeling to prone. All was timed. Note that my friends know what they are talking about and have attended many formal training classes and are accomplished practitioners.

I never seen anything like this before and thought it was pretty cool. They asked if I wanted to give it a try, I had a stock M-4 with iron sights with me so I gave it a shot. After my first run (all hits and several seconds slower than them) they pointed out that I should look at my mag well on magazine changes.To me that was a foreign idea since in CMP or NRA HP I never broke my position to change mags on the rapid fire strings. I decided to stick with what I knew, and on the second run I had the fastest time (with all hits). Now I understand that there may be more to looking at you mag well on mag changes, but in application is it the "best" way?

[Mtbkski]

I have also learned that just because one person says you should do it this way, doesn't mean that everyone feels the same way. And that doesn't mean that they are wrong.

One instructor would say to do it this way. And I would have problems doing it. Then I would take another lesson off another instructor who would say to do it differently, but that way worked great for me.

My point is, and my question is, with regards to firearm training, how the hell does one determine what the "best" way is? IMHO, it's all subjective. How can anyone prove it's the "best" or "right" way to do something? The only way it can be proved is in it's measurable and repeatable success in real life application's. Does that data exit? If not, then how can anyone claim it's the "best" or even the "right" way to do something?

This is one reason I like to take classes off of VARIOUS instructors. I don't think one is better than the other. They just are... DIFFERENT.

There probably isn't ONE WAY to do something that is best. But most of them seem to have a common similarity when you look at them.

Just like Martial Arts. I have taken about 3 different styles of Martial Arts over the past 25 years. And now, I find that I use a little of this style and a little of that style when I'm fighting. When I competed in a local tournament, I had a head ref come up and ask me "What style you study? Cause you are constantly changing up on what you do." I think this is why Mixed Martial Arts has gained so much popularity. Cause they take a little of this style, and a little of that style and give you the stuff that seems to work the best. And then you use the stuff that they teach you that works the best for you out of everything you learn. It isn't a STYLE of it's own, but rather a MIXTURE of what works from a variety of styles.

Today's firearms classes are basically just that. A mixture of this and that. This may seem to work for this instructor so he teaches it. But this instructor doesn't like it to much and finds that this technique is better. Neither one is wrong. It is just what works best for you.

And again... This is why I like taking classes off of various instructors. From Skiing to martial arts to firearms. I have learned more from DIFFERENT instructors over the course of years than I ever would have off of just one teacher. VARIETY IS THE SPICE OF LIFE. And a good way to find what works for YOU and what doesn't