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June 12th, 2013, 12:18 AM #131
Re: Military vs. Self defense training
I've never trained with John, in fact I've never met him, and don't really know him, but I will vouch for what he says above.
I've been a gun owner with an LTCF for a couple of decades and used to think that static shooting at an indoor range once or twice a year was good enough. Then about 6 months ago, I decided to take an all day "Advanced Pistol" class that was local to me while I was down in Florida. Part of the motivation was to meet the mandatory training required to obtain a Florida carry license (I spend a fair amount of time down there) but I knew the class was overkill for that purpose.
To say that class was an eye-opening experience for would be a dramatic understatement. Since then I've taken the same class a second time, and several others as well. I learned more each time, but I still don't know enough (and probably never will) and... It's a heck of a lot of fun!Molon Labe!
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June 12th, 2013, 01:20 AM #132Senior Member
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Re: Military vs. Self defense training
While the statement I highlighted in red above is Tigerswan's motto, they didn't invent this saying. It's been around the firearms training world for a long time.
I think there is a bit of confusion among a few regarding what are weapon handling techniques and what are tactics.
Reloading, malfunction clearing, etc. are not "tactics".
The definition of "tactics" or being "tactical" is....having a plan or set of maneuvers.
In the classes I teach, probably 85% of what I teach are weapon handling techniques. Being able to reload a weapon or clear a malfunction quickly and efficiently and get the gun back into the fight are very good skills to have. Understand the situation you are in - you are in the middle of a gunfight with a gun that won't work. Murphy's Law certainly applies here. Doing this stuff isn't rocket surgery, but there is usually more to it than many people realize. If you don't have these skills and then find yourself in a real world situation and you need them, you are not going to magically acquire these skills in the middle of a gunfight.
Paul Howe's comment is so true it should be etched in stone. Jason Falla of Red Back One has a slogan for his company - "Subconscious weapon manipulations, cold and on demand". Absolutely spot on.
For those who don't think they need or see the point of professional training........
I really don't know how anyone can get the type of skills I am talking about without being professionally trained. If you don't want to take my word for it, fine. Please read the AAR here in Training, Tactics, and Competition from the last 2 day AR class I taught in Holsopple, PA. Every single student who was in that class is a member here at PAFOA. Contact them and ask them if they learned anything. I'm sure Jay and Tony F can put you in touch with some of their former students who will tell you the exact same things.
Just about all of us know of Jeff Cooper's statement about how just owning a piano doesn't make you a musician. This is the point I am making.
John
www.3riverstraining.com
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June 12th, 2013, 01:58 AM #133Grand Member
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Re: Military vs. Self defense training
I think it was Louis Awerbuck who first described it as "there is no such thing as an advanced gunfight".
In the classes I teach, probably 85% of what I teach are weapon handling techniques. Being able to reload a weapon or clear a malfunction quickly and efficiently and get the gun back into the fight are very good skills to have. Understand the situation you are in - you are in the middle of a gunfight with a gun that won't work. Murphy's Law certainly applies here. Doing this stuff isn't rocket surgery, but there is usually more to it than many people realize. If you don't have these skills and then find yourself in a real world situation and you need them, you are not going to magically acquire these skills in the middle of a gunfight.
Paul Howe's comment is so true it should be etched in stone. Jason Falla of Red Back One has a slogan for his company - "Subconscious weapon manipulations, cold and on demand". Absolutely spot on.
Unconscious Incompetent.
Conscious Incompetent.
Conscious Competent.
Unconscious Competent.
What Paul Howe and Jason Falla et al are saying is that ultimately gun handling skills and marksmanship need to be at a level of "Unconscious Competent" (auto-pilot).
But it doesn't take a lifetime of training to ascend to that level. This is the part I don't get about justashooter's comments about fine motor skills taking "years to develop". That is patently false. Mindset does take time to develop but it is nurtured along the way by the confidence and composure gained from achieving a state of "Unconscious Competence".
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June 12th, 2013, 02:55 AM #134Senior Member
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Re: Military vs. Self defense training
Agreed on all points Tony.
John
www.3riverstraining.com
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June 12th, 2013, 09:34 AM #135
Re: Military vs. Self defense training
Since we're talking about the origin of such statements and opinion, I think it's important to note that Falla just about copied Northern Red's motto "Performance: On Demand", and didn't make any mention about "subconscious" anything until well after JD with Northern Red (now Invictus Alliance) had been discussing it (after months/years of research on the topic) it in his classes, and with Jason personally.
It's great to see trainers embracing and teaching important principles and concepts, but I've yet to see Jason give JD any credit for that material (if he has and I just haven't seen it, then I stand corrected).
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June 12th, 2013, 10:49 AM #136Grand Member
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Re: Military vs. Self defense training
Subconscious, unconscious, ........ whatever.
The principle was originally developed in the field of psychology many decades ago as one means of describing / defining certain aspects of the human learning process. It has been adapted and applied by the training industry for decades, long before instructors like Falla and JD were old enough to own firearms.
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June 12th, 2013, 11:15 AM #137
Re: Military vs. Self defense training
Sure, and people were pulling triggers on pistols centuries before Col. Cooper came along. Does that mean he doesn't deserve any credit in advancing/ pioneering pistol shooting techniques?
Standing on the shoulders of others research/ hard work without giving them credit is intellectually dishonest, in my opinion... regardless of whether they invented something, or just worked to rediscover/ re-apply existing theory in a different way.
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June 12th, 2013, 11:35 AM #138Grand Member
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Re: Military vs. Self defense training
The most significant aspect of the modern technique, the weaver stance, Cooper in no uncertain terms attributed to Jack Weaver.
Standing on the shoulders of others research/ hard work without giving them credit is intellectually dishonest, in my opinion... regardless of whether they invented something, or just worked to rediscover/ re-apply existing theory in a different way.
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June 12th, 2013, 03:27 PM #139Banned
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Re: Military vs. Self defense training
I think there would be a lot to learn and share concerning firearms training in any class. I however think a lot of that information can be learned through free sources, and then practicing them yourself. Especially when it comes to basic weapon manipulation. It's not exactly rocket science and all it takes is a few minutes to learn the steps and hours of repeating them until you can do it without a second thought.
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June 12th, 2013, 04:10 PM #140Banned
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Re: Military vs. Self defense training
holsopple pa was created in the 1820's by my great great great grandfather's widow and her sons after she got the deed to the land from her father in law, a york county lawyer and merchant. he deeded it to her after she and her boys came home to newberry twp yrk from her farm in what is now west virginia. her husband had been killed while serving as a scout in the ohio territory during the war of 1812, burned at the stake alive by indians in league with the british. hollsopples have lived in the area ever since, including my dad's mother's family.
the story is that her father in law took the deed to the property that is now hollsopple in trade for a gentleman's overcoat. must have been one very fine coat.
holsopple, hollsapple, and holtzappffel are all spellings that have been used by the family since erasmus holtzappffel entered the port of philadelphia as a young german immigrant in 1736. his descendents have served this country in just about every armed conflict since.
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