Military vs. Self defense training

[TonyF]

Either point out in any of my replies to this thread where it could even be remotely suggested that I was pimping a FIRE Institute course or publicly take back what you wrote.

tony, i make note only of the presence of an advertisement for your business in your sig line, including your phone number and website link. you are clearly in conflict of interest while participating in this thread.

I think it's unreasonable and unfair to connect those dots. FYI, the FIRE Institute is a 501c3 non profit. I have never been paid one red cent for the volunteer work I do on behalf of our organization. All the money we generate is used to pay overhead costs, purchase supplies and targets and staples for the staple guns, things like that, not to mention the thousands of dollars we donated to our host club for range improvements that EVERY member of that club now enjoys.

As for the rest of it ......

as for the value of training, well, fine motor skills repetition is important, but mindset is even more important. both take years to develop and process at an internal level, and they cannot be taught in a 20 hour training course. pushing people into a "skill zone" schema without giving them time to develop either fine motor skills repetition or mindset is like giving a 10 year old kid the keys to a bulldozer. i regard this practice as reckless, at best.

I am sincerely trying to wrap my head around your PoV despite the sniping and sarcastic remarks in some of your replies that were totally uncalled for.

First of all, you're not telling me anything I don't already know regarding mindset as the most important aspect of coping with a lethal force encounter. But I do disagree with your assessment that it takes years to internalize and develop precisely because it is something that cannot be measured.

One 20 hour class doesn't turn you into a gunfighter. Every student who has ever attended such a class will attest to that. It is a journey. How far a student travels on that journey is limited by their financial means and how important it is to them personally.

What we are trying to do is impart marksmanship and gun handling skills that will build confidence in the students ability to employ the firearm, which will provide him / her with a measure of composure, which in turn helps them to develop proper mindset.

What alternative is there? Do nothing?

I just taught a one day HG class this past Sunday. We make it clear that this is not a gunfighting class, rather it is a familiarization class (to your point about the issue of repetition). But it is a way for students to at the least become familiar with the safety protocol used throughout the training industry.

I had three of eight students who prior to the course, experienced the low left POI typical of poor trigger control. At the end of the day, the error was corrected and they went home much better marksman.

To your point of "skill zone" schema, I'm not sure I understand your point. There is a curricula we follow. First you learn addition and subtraction, then multiplication and division, then algebra, trigonometry and calculus. All along the way fine motor skills are being honed and mindset is being developed.

What methodology would you suggest?

[Mtbkski]

as for the value of training, well, fine motor skills repetition is important, but mindset is even more important. both take years to develop and process at an internal level, and they cannot be taught in a 20 hour training course. pushing people into a "skill zone" schema without giving them time to develop either fine motor skills repetition or mindset is like giving a 10 year old kid the keys to a bulldozer. i regard this practice as reckless, at best.

Hate to tell you this. But the majority of our service men and women who go overseas to fight for this country, and seem to do a pretty good job of doing it, have not had YEARS to develop the skills they are using in actual combat situations.

Even the "Special Teams" members have not had YEARS to develop the techniques that they are using.

So your comments are pretty much bull, and lack anything that resembles truth.

If we had to wait years for LEO, Military, CIA, FBI, SWAT, and on and on... to develop these special skills. We would have to start training our children to be professional fighters when they are young. Sure, some people may pick up things faster than others. But according to you. We all are wasting our time, cause unless we spend years training at the stuff these guys teach, none of us will ever have any use for it, cause we will never be able to truly use it.

[Kabloosh]

Hate to tell you this. But the majority of our service men and women who go overseas to fight for this country, and seem to do a pretty good job of doing it, have not had YEARS to develop the skills they are using in actual combat situations.

Even the "Special Teams" members have not had YEARS to develop the techniques that they are using.

So your comments are pretty much bull, and lack anything that resembles truth.

If we had to wait years for LEO, Military, CIA, FBI, SWAT, and on and on... to develop these special skills. We would have to start training our children to be professional fighters when they are young. Sure, some people may pick up things faster than others. But according to you. We all are wasting our time, cause unless we spend years training at the stuff these guys teach, none of us will ever have any use for it, cause we will never be able to truly use it.

Special operations jobs do get years of round the clock training. Civilians don't exactly work 40+ hours a week practicing infantry tactics but rather do it here and there. I think he is referring to more advanced tactics and not just learning how to clear a malfunction or reloading your gun over and over. You can learn how to effectively do that in a few hours but it may take a few days or weeks to get it down to where if you are being shot at you do it as second nature. You can't exactly simulate the stress that comes along with such pressure so I wouldn't even worry about it.
I do periodically practice drawing and reloading at home though. I also factor in locations of cover or concealment in my house as well since these are areas I would want to move to as a engage someone breaking in. All these things I think don't need an instructor to tell you to learn since it is really something you need to learn on your own. Even when you are out and about just looking for things that you could use as cover and concealment or in more of a self defense situation avenues of escape. Even for SHTF scenarios combat tactics are relatively useless. You won't be fighting a war but rather trying to just survive. If you think your best chance of survival involves learning how to encroach on a barricaded position you probably aren't going to last very long.

[Mtbkski]

Special operations jobs do get years of round the clock training.

Well, yes and no. If they stay with it they do. But once they graduate school, they are expected to be ready to be called out from that moment on. They aren't held in reserve until they have years of training in. Sure, if they do nothing else, over the course of time, they may actually get in YEARS of training. But it isn't a requirement for them to perform their duties.

I was a grunt in the Marines. I was not "training" 40 hours a week. In fact, very little of your week consisted of actual training. I spent a lot of time learning, but again, if I took all the time I actually spent doing nothing but training for combat. My time in training would probably not even account for one year of my time in the Corps. Yet, I was expected to be ready to fight if called upon.

I think he is referring to more advanced tactics and not just learning how to clear a malfunction or reloading your gun over and over.

You don't start off learning advance tactics. You have to start at the beginning. And to say that having no training at all unless you have had YEARS of training is a waste of time is foolish. I started taking Martial Arts and about six months after I started taking it, I had to use it. It wasn't pretty. It was pretty sloppy. But it worked. Worked well enough that I prevailed in the situation I was in. So, was that little bit of training I had worth it. Darn right it was. And I credit my winning out in the situation I was in on the "little bit" of training that I had acquired.

You can learn how to effectively do that in a few hours but it may take a few days or weeks to get it down to where if you are being shot at you do it as second nature. You can't exactly simulate the stress that comes along with such pressure so I wouldn't even worry about it.

True. But you can only do what you have been trained to do if you had some kind of training. Your reloads may not be pretty. But if you have had zero training. They are probably going to be a lot worse. Under stress your mind goes blank. So, you only tend to do what you have been training yourself to do without a lot of thinking involved. Even a little training is better than zero training at times like this. Is years of training better. Sure it is. But you have to start somewhere.

As I mentioned earlier. My "little bit" of martial arts training saved me an ass kicking. It wasn't pretty. I didn't look like Chuck Norris. But the little bit of training that I had, I fell back on when I was under stress. That "little bit" of training gave me the upper hand.

I do periodically practice drawing and reloading at home though. I also factor in locations of cover or concealment in my house as well since these are areas I would want to move to as a engage someone breaking in. All these things I think don't need an instructor to tell you to learn since it is really something you need to learn on your own. Even when you are out and about just looking for things that you could use as cover and concealment or in more of a self defense situation avenues of escape.

But, just what if, someone could teach you a better way to do what your doing now? Something you had never thought of doing before? Holding the pistol or rifle a little bit differently that would enable you to fire it more effectively? Would that be a good thing? Or, are you 100% positive that what your doing is actually the best option for you to use. That you are using cover / concealment to the best you can? You may take a class and find you knew it all. That they didn't teach you anything, but what if you learned something that made you better. Wouldn't that training be a good thing then.

To get YEARS of training.... you got to start somewhere.

[TonyF]

Special operations jobs do get years of round the clock training. Civilians don't exactly work 40+ hours a week practicing infantry tactics but rather do it here and there. I think he is referring to more advanced tactics and not just learning how to clear a malfunction or reloading your gun over and over. You can learn how to effectively do that in a few hours but it may take a few days or weeks to get it down to where if you are being shot at you do it as second nature. You can't exactly simulate the stress that comes along with such pressure so I wouldn't even worry about it.

This is actually the heart of the matter isn't it? Let's define "advanced tactics". Is it dynamic entry? Room clearing? Team tactics? What exactly are "advanced tactics"?

OTOH, you don't have to train people to be super-warriors to defend against the typical civilian encounter. Lots of people have successfully defended themselves with a minimum amount of formal training. And lots of people have successfully defended themselves with no formal training. The difference is that I'd lay odds that those with formal training did it right, and those without formal training had lady luck on their side.

[ShaulWolf]

What I'm finding interesting is that no one has really set an agreed upon definition of what's considered "basic" or "fundamental" skills and what's considered "advanced" or "tactical".

For me, basic and fundamental skills would be things like grip, stance, sight picture, sight alignment, trigger pull, and breathing. Further down you can include things like reloading and clearing malfunctions, as well as simple movements to/away from a threat.

Advanced skills would include more dynamic things like room clearing, engagements from a vehicle, moving and shooting from cover, multiple target engagements, and team dynamics.

Those basic fundamental skills will help anyone regardless of personal skill level, and they'll carry over when that person has to do something more "advanced". Proper grip, stance, trigger pull, and breathing will help pull off faster shots. Sight picture and alignment will help get a person on target faster and more consistently at varying ranges. So on and so forth.

All of that carries over to when you have to start adding in awkward angles and speeding up movements. That's when your fundamental skills need to be solid and well practiced or you'll find yourself missing shots or having to slow down significantly to make them. However, you'll also start seeing nuances in what works for different scenarios and why in more "advanced" lessons that you wouldn't normally think about, like what shooting through glass is like, or why enter a room and go in one direction versus the other.

Again, in all cases, fundamental skills need to be honed or you won't be to shoot or move as quickly, or you'll miss shots.

So why would classes and quality practice time (live or dry fire) be important? Most of us know the basics and probably have decent fundamentals, right? Because you can see what others are doing and what might work better for you. It's about options and building confidence for a lot, and it's about getting it right the first time for many others.

I'm pretty certain my fundamentals are good, but I still ask for pointers from Master level shooters and instructors on what I can do better. Maybe my grip can use a slight tweaking, or my stance could be adjusted when I've noticed myself slowing down, etc. It's always good to get a fresh perspective to see what could be done to improve, and if nothing else, get more options.

From there, see what works consistently and is most efficient, and then apply it.

I could do that myself given enough time, effort, and money. Or I could ask or take lessons and likely cut down on how much time I spend doing it on my own.

[Kabloosh]

Well, yes and no. If they stay with it they do. But once they graduate school, they are expected to be ready to be called out from that moment on. They aren't held in reserve until they have years of training in. Sure, if they do nothing else, over the course of time, they may actually get in YEARS of training. But it isn't a requirement for them to perform their duties.

I was a grunt in the Marines. I was not "training" 40 hours a week. In fact, very little of your week consisted of actual training. I spent a lot of time learning, but again, if I took all the time I actually spent doing nothing but training for combat. My time in training would probably not even account for one year of my time in the Corps. Yet, I was expected to be ready to fight if called upon.





You don't start off learning advance tactics. You have to start at the beginning. And to say that having no training at all unless you have had YEARS of training is a waste of time is foolish. I started taking Martial Arts and about six months after I started taking it, I had to use it. It wasn't pretty. It was pretty sloppy. But it worked. Worked well enough that I prevailed in the situation I was in. So, was that little bit of training I had worth it. Darn right it was. And I credit my winning out in the situation I was in on the "little bit" of training that I had acquired.




True. But you can only do what you have been trained to do if you had some kind of training. Your reloads may not be pretty. But if you have had zero training. They are probably going to be a lot worse. Under stress your mind goes blank. So, you only tend to do what you have been training yourself to do without a lot of thinking involved. Even a little training is better than zero training at times like this. Is years of training better. Sure it is. But you have to start somewhere.

As I mentioned earlier. My "little bit" of martial arts training saved me an ass kicking. It wasn't pretty. I didn't look like Chuck Norris. But the little bit of training that I had, I fell back on when I was under stress. That "little bit" of training gave me the upper hand.





But, just what if, someone could teach you a better way to do what your doing now? Something you had never thought of doing before? Holding the pistol or rifle a little bit differently that would enable you to fire it more effectively? Would that be a good thing? Or, are you 100% positive that what your doing is actually the best option for you to use. That you are using cover / concealment to the best you can? You may take a class and find you knew it all. That they didn't teach you anything, but what if you learned something that made you better. Wouldn't that training be a good thing then.

To get YEARS of training.... you got to start somewhere.

That is what the internet and friends are for... oh and experimentation. Classes are too expensive and I'd probably spend money on learning contact controls or joining a gym that teaches MMA fighting techniques.

This is actually the heart of the matter isn't it? Let's define "advanced tactics". Is it dynamic entry? Room clearing? Team tactics? What exactly are "advanced tactics"?

OTOH, you don't have to train people to be super-warriors to defend against the typical civilian encounter. Lots of people have successfully defended themselves with a minimum amount of formal training. And lots of people have successfully defended themselves with no formal training. The difference is that I'd lay odds that those with formal training did it right, and those without formal training had lady luck on their side.

I don't know what other people's interpretation of advanced training is but mine is knowing how to operate your weapon effectively enough to where you can shoot, reload, and clear it with no issue at all. Outside of weapons training I think the basics also include building a mindset of understanding what is cover and concealment and generally when and when not to use a handgun. All of this can be taught in a day and is really up to the individual to practice what you have been taught to get these core fundamentals down.

Beyond that advanced tactics I think falls under learning infantry tactics, or in the case of more self defense verbal judo(talking an opponent down to where you don't need to use your handgun) and things like that.

Fighting at its core really is rather basic though. You don't want to over complicate things and that is kind of why the basics of formal training goes so far and once you have the basics down it really comes down to your imagination, and situational awareness.

I'm pretty content with my military training but I do like to research and study new things when it comes to what others have to offer. A lot of the information is already free and readily available out there. I can go out and then imitate it and see how it works when I can or experiment myself. Hell, my shooting stance with a pistol is already pretty wacky since I'm right handed but left eye dominant.

Again, the actual teaching of techniques can take a day. It is really up to you as an individual to practice them repeatedly to then burn them into muscle memory making it much more natural and something you body just does under stress. If you need a guy telling you to do that for a week then go for it. I on the other hand and watch a 30 second youtube video, observe it and try it out if I think it would be a good idea in the first place. The internet is a great place for good information as well as misinformation.

[synergy]

Special operations jobs do get years of round the clock training. Civilians don't exactly work 40+ hours a week practicing infantry tactics but rather do it here and there.

I have friends that went into SF at 18 years old, had about 18 months of training before their first deployment. That training covered radio use, first aid, mortars, crew served weapons, requesting air support, rucking, climbing, cold weather survival, airborne training, PT, map/compass and GPS use, foreign language training, and drill and ceremony. There is a lot more that goes into those jobs than shooting and CQB tactics...

Even SF Sgt's don't have "years" of weapons training before they're deployed.

A few good friends of mine went to a Larry Vickers pistol class where there were a few SF guys about half way through the Q-Course in attendance. They had already had their formal firearms training, but still had a lot to learn about shooting pistols. They learned more in those two days with Larry than they did in all of their military SF training up until that point.

There is no reason why ordinary joe's need to feel like their performance can't meet/ exceed that of those who carry a gun for a living. It just comes down to dedication and willingness to put the time in, and making the most of available opportunities.

Training isn't cheap, but it's usually a steroid shot to your skill set.

Had I taken formal training earlier in my shooting career, I likely would have avoided buying 3 pistols that didn't fit my needs, shooting thousands of rounds practicing bad habits, and would generally just be a more advanced shooter than I am today having gone through those wasted motions.

[synergy]

What I'm finding interesting is that no one has really set an agreed upon definition of what's considered "basic" or "fundamental" skills and what's considered "advanced" or "tactical".
...

"There are no such thing as advanced techniques, only advanced applications of the basics." - J. Michael Plaxco

"It all starts with the ability to put one round on one target." - Brian Searcy

"There is no such thing as "advanced tactical skills" - there is only perfect execution of the fundamentals under stress." - Tigerswan motto

“High speed isn't about gun, gear or tactics. High speed is executing the basics perfectly no matter what, cold, wet, day, night, tired. That’s high speed." - Paul Howe


To me, "advanced" simply means that your gunhandling and shooting is capable of being effectively managed by your subconscious, freeing up your conscious mind to actively solve problems.

That could be running a USPSA course at full speed and being able to reload and step precisely where intended while reacting and adjusting to the situation at hand... or it could be taking down a room with a team of guys, and reading the first mans movements/ actions, and instantly reacting appropriately when he goes "off script".

It's being able to use your brain to solve a problem, while your "autopilot" takes care of the sights/trigger/gunhandling/manipulations/etc.

[Spectre6]

"There are no such thing as advanced techniques, only advanced applications of the basics." - J. Michael Plaxco

"It all starts with the ability to put one round on one target." - Brian Searcy

"There is no such thing as "advanced tactical skills" - there is only perfect execution of the fundamentals under stress." - Tigerswan motto

“High speed isn't about gun, gear or tactics. High speed is executing the basics perfectly no matter what, cold, wet, day, night, tired. That’s high speed." - Paul Howe


To me, "advanced" simply means that your gunhandling and shooting is capable of being effectively managed by your subconscious, freeing up your conscious mind to actively solve problems.

That could be running a USPSA course at full speed and being able to reload and step precisely where intended while reacting and adjusting to the situation at hand... or it could be taking down a room with a team of guys, and reading the first mans movements/ actions, and instantly reacting appropriately when he goes "off script".

It's being able to use your brain to solve a problem, while your "autopilot" takes care of the sights/trigger/gunhandling/manipulations/etc.

When it comes to Tactics and weapons handling (at least from my experience on the military side), this cant be more true. Infantry are shown the basics on day one, and the rest of your career is spent perfecting those manipulations, communications, and tactics.