Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #111
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    Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

    Quote Originally Posted by John A Brown View Post
    "This is not stuff that I created. This is stuff that was taught to me. It is stuff that others have learned over time works. And I am here to share that info with you if you want to learn it."

    Randy is para-phrasing what I said, but it's close enough to get the point across.

    John

    www.3riverstraining.com
    Hell, I'm glad I remembered your name. I suck at remembering names. But I knew it was "something" like that that you told us. My point was made.
    The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control....
    The day they want my guns, they'll have to bring theirs!!!
    Proud to be One of the 3%

  2. #112
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    Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

    I wanted to stop by because a few people notified me of this thread and that I'd been mentioned. For those of you who've said positive things, thanks much I appreciate it.

    I want to address the following statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by EvoRich View Post
    I'd be willing to bet that a HUGE majority of civilians that have successfully defended themselves, via firearm, had no formal training.
    I agree with the above. So what's the point of formal firearms training then?

    Formal firearms training can give you two things which are an advantage over the untrained gun owner:

    confidence

    options

    You have a better grip on your strengths, your weaknesses, and what you KNOW you're capable of. Proper broad-based training should also help you understand the dynamics of interpersonal interactions with unknown contacts. This can give you the edge in avoiding dangerous situations instead of dealing with them as they "suddenly" materialize. You should also have a better understanding of federal and state law as pertains to both carrying a weapon and use-of-force.


  3. #113
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    Aug 2006
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    (Westmoreland County)
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    Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

    Quote Originally Posted by EvoRich View Post
    People don't need ANY training to be able to defend themselves with a firearm. I'd be willing to bet that a HUGE majority of civilians that have successfully defended themselves, via firearm, had no formal training.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay_Cunningham View Post
    I agree with the above. So what's the point of formal firearms training then?

    Formal firearms training can give you two things which are an advantage over the untrained gun owner:

    confidence

    options
    It's this but there's also a hidden fact in EvoRich's statement which is that good results can reinforce poor tactics. The homeowner by example of this general statement could have done everything wrong and still prevailed. And that is a dangerous precedent.
    Tony
    412.310.7838
    http://www.fireinstitute.org

    "... there's trained and untrained" (Denzel Washington -- Man on Fire)

  4. #114
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    (York County)
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    Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyF View Post
    Either point out in any of my replies to this thread where it could even be remotely suggested that I was pimping a FIRE Institute course or publicly take back what you wrote.
    tony, i make note only of the presence of an advertisement for your business in your sig line, including your phone number and website link. you are clearly in conflict of interest while participating in this thread.

    as for the value of training, well, fine motor skills repetition is important, but mindset is even more important. both take years to develop and process at an internal level, and they cannot be taught in a 20 hour training course. pushing people into a "skill zone" schema without giving them time to develop either fine motor skills repetition or mindset is like giving a 10 year old kid the keys to a bulldozer. i regard this practice as reckless, at best.

  5. #115
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    May 2006
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    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

    You regard the practice of training people reckless ? Or are you saying that ony people with 20 years of self-tought mindset are the ony ones qualified for professional training? Speaking from experience, realistic training prepared me well for actual combat and refined and prepared my mindset.. And being that this is a thread discussing training (that civilians would recieve from schools like FIRE), tony is perfectly qualified to engage in this discussion and I appreciate his input.

    I would argue Fine (and gross) motor skills are equally important as they play supporting roles. Understanding the application of force doesn't do much good without the ability
    To apply it.
    Last edited by Spectre6; June 10th, 2013 at 02:33 PM.

  6. #116
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    Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectre6 View Post
    Speaking from experience, realistic training prepared me well for actual combat and refined and prepared my mindset...
    you are now in possession of a schema that you are prepared for actual combat. in reality, you are not. this makes you more dangerous to yourself, and those innocents around you. case in point.

  7. #117
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    Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

    I was prepared for the actual combat I participated in.

  8. #118
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    Dec 2010
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    Erie, Pennsylvania
    (Erie County)
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    Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

    Quote Originally Posted by justashooter View Post
    tony, i make note only of the presence of an advertisement for your business in your sig line, including your phone number and website link. you are clearly in conflict of interest while participating in this thread. Absurd! Much like telling GunLawyer not to respond to legal questions because of his signature. These guys respond on their own time.

    as for the value of training, well, fine motor skills repetition is important, but mindset is even more important. both take years to develop and process at an internal level, and they cannot be taught in a 20 hour training course. pushing people into a "skill zone" schema without giving them time to develop either fine motor skills repetition or mindset is like giving a 10 year old kid the keys to a bulldozer. i regard this practice as reckless, at best.
    No one can disagree with what you stated here except for the 'bulldozer analogy crap'. Instructors expect their students to practice and train to the limits they, the students were instructed. MIndset can be talk about, but can only be owned by the individual.

    You have yet to make a good argument. Maybe you should venture a class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Splittiebus66 View Post
    I was all like " do you even milspec brah?"

  9. #119
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    Jan 2013
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    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

    Quote Originally Posted by justashooter View Post
    tony, i make note only of the presence of an advertisement for your business in your sig line, including your phone number and website link. you are clearly in conflict of interest while participating in this thread.

    as for the value of training, well, fine motor skills repetition is important, but mindset is even more important. both take years to develop and process at an internal level, and they cannot be taught in a 20 hour training course. pushing people into a "skill zone" schema without giving them time to develop either fine motor skills repetition or mindset is like giving a 10 year old kid the keys to a bulldozer. i regard this practice as reckless, at best.
    You can ask ANY student I have ever trained - civilian, law enforcement, military, contractor or anyone else - and they will tell you that I constantly say that there is only so much that can be accomplished in a 1 day or 2 day course. Or a 5 day or 30 day course for that matter.

    Also, in every single class that I teach I give students drills that they can take with them and do at home, for free, to make themselves a better weapon handler. Two examples are pistol draws and reloads. One of the best investments any shooter can make is to spend $10 on some dummy rounds and practice reloads. This can be done in a garage or basement, and it costs nothing after an initial investment of a few dollars.

    One of the things I say at the start of every class I teach is "Nobody is going to leave here at the end of the class and be ready to join SEAL Team 6."

    John

    www.3riverstraining.com

  10. #120
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    Chester County, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Military vs. Self defense training

    Quote Originally Posted by justashooter View Post
    as for the value of training, well, fine motor skills repetition is important, but mindset is even more important. both take years to develop and process at an internal level, and they cannot be taught in a 20 hour training course. pushing people into a "skill zone" schema without giving them time to develop either fine motor skills repetition or mindset is like giving a 10 year old kid the keys to a bulldozer. i regard this practice as reckless, at best.
    So, where did you start to learn any of what you claim to know?

    If training is worthless, where did any resemblance of skill come from in your case?

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