Can anyone help with my LTCF permit?

[SevenMilePete]

Out of County references is not a valid reason for denial. What the sheriff is doing is illegal, and he won't stop by people rolling over.

Absolutely correct. There is actually only one official application, and it doesn't even specify that the references have to be state residents. Most counties don't even call them unless your app is questionable.

[SevenMilePete]

How is everyone doing? Im new here but I started reading this thread and I have something to add and perhaps someone can help me out.

I am an active duty Soldier in the Army. Stationed at Ft. Bragg NC, as a Cavalry Scout but I grew up in Monroe county and it is where I enlisted from back in 2006.

I have been deployed to both Iraq and Afghanistan and I currently still serve honorably today as a Staff Sergeant. Last year I made multiple trips to PA for the sole purpose to acquire my CCP most of these trips were because the reference packets were not sent to my references so I would again have to reapply. When it was all said and done it was denied I have tried numerous times to contact the sheriff and have yet to receive a reply back. Im kind of stuck as to what to do. Monroe county is still my home of record to the military and I still pay taxes to the state and county.

Thanks for your time everyone.

Reference packets?

[Mike35]

I know it isn't right. I know it isn't legal. None of this changes the fact it is happening.

As much as we'd all like to believe I will simply point to the statute and the sheriff will ring his fists and say "You win this time!" and all the issues will go away, let's face facts that is not going to be the end of it. Making enemies with the sheriff's office even if I am on the moral high ground is not such an attractive option. As someone who once reported police for misconduct and was subsequently harassed for over a year (I owned a bar and the precinct I complained about tried to ruin my business...) going down a similar road is stressing me out. I already have serious social anxiety.

[Jhaydeno]

I know it isn't right. I know it isn't legal. None of this changes the fact it is happening.

As much as we'd all like to believe I will simply point to the statute and the sheriff will ring his fists and say "You win this time!" and all the issues will go away, let's face facts that is not going to be the end of it. Making enemies with the sheriff's office even if I am on the moral high ground is not such an attractive option. As someone who once reported police for misconduct and was subsequently harassed for over a year (I owned a bar and the precinct I complained about tried to ruin my business...) going down a similar road is stressing me out. I already have serious social anxiety.

Understandable, but the sheriff isn't the police. When was the last time you had to interact with those guys, aside from walking into a courthouse? If enough people force the issue policy will change, and there's always someone with more authority... If you've got the moral high ground stand up for your rights, for nobody else will. As the O' family motto states:

Lamh laidir an uachtar : the strongest hand uppermost (or, 'from above').

That's Irish for those not familiar with Gaelic....

[PoconoJo]

I just love people jumping in on these discussions about what is law what isn't law what is legal what isn't legal. We all know that there's no LAW that says the references MUST be from the same county. As far as that goes, there's no LAW that says you have to submit your Berkheimers from the most recent year either. And to be accused of "rolling over" is insulting. What IS LAW is that the Sheriff is in charge of conducting the background check and that leaves a lot open to interpretation. They have to base their investigation on something. I urge anyone with huge pockets to go literally fight city hall otherwise keep the insults to yourself and follow the process. I just renewed mine and the thought that I have to kiss these peoples' butts, especially Sgt Macaroni behind that desk....well I'd rather chew on a piece of dog crap...but that's how it goes so until someone can afford to fight it just do as they ask...and interestingly enough, even after living here 11 years I myself had trouble finding a second Monroe County reference. If I had to find 3 or 4 I'd be screwed.

The most appropriate response to the OP was someone willing to be that second reference. Not arbiters of gun law.

[twency]

I just love people jumping in on these discussions about what is law what isn't law what is legal what isn't legal. We all know that there's no LAW that says the references MUST be from the same county. As far as that goes, there's no LAW that says you have to submit your Berkheimers from the most recent year either. And to be accused of "rolling over" is insulting. What IS LAW is that the Sheriff is in charge of conducting the background check and that leaves a lot open to interpretation. They have to base their investigation on something. I urge anyone with huge pockets to go literally fight city hall otherwise keep the insults to yourself and follow the process. I just renewed mine and the thought that I have to kiss these peoples' butts, especially Sgt Macaroni behind that desk....well I'd rather chew on a piece of dog crap...but that's how it goes so until someone can afford to fight it just do as they ask...and interestingly enough, even after living here 11 years I myself had trouble finding a second Monroe County reference. If I had to find 3 or 4 I'd be screwed.

The most appropriate response to the OP was someone willing to be that second reference. Not arbiters of gun law.

There is very little room for interpretation. The applicant is required to submit a fee (prescribed by law) and an application (which the law requires the PSP to prescribe). Nothing else.

The application for a license to carry a firearm shall be uniform throughout this Commonwealth and shall be on a form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. The form may contain provisions, not exceeding one page, to assure compliance with this section. Issuing authorities shall use only the application form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police.

A sheriff may (and must) only deny if any of the following apply:

(i) An individual whose character and reputation is such that the individual would be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety.
(ii) An individual who has been convicted of an offense under the act of April 14, 1972 (P.L. 233, No. 64), known as The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act. [FN1]
(iii) An individual convicted of a crime enumerated in section 6105.
(iv) An individual who, within the past ten years, has been adjudicated delinquent for a crime enumerated in section 6105 or for an offense under The Controlled Substance, Drug, Device and Cosmetic Act.
(v) An individual who is not of sound mind or who has ever been committed to a mental institution.
(vi) An individual who is addicted to or is an unlawful user of marijuana or a stimulant, depressant or narcotic drug.
(vii) An individual who is a habitual drunkard.
(viii) An individual who is charged with or has been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year except as provided for in section 6123 (relating to waiver of disability or pardons).
(ix) A resident of another state who does not possess a current license or permit or similar document to carry a firearm issued by that state if a license is provided for by the laws of that state, as published annually in the Federal Register by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury under 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(19) (relating to definitions).
(x) An alien who is illegally in the United States.
(xi) An individual who has been discharged from the armed forces of the United States under dishonorable conditions.
(xii) An individual who is a fugitive from justice. This subparagraph does not apply to an individual whose fugitive status is based upon nonmoving or moving summary offense under Title 75 (relating to vehicles).
(xiii) An individual who is otherwise prohibited from possessing, using, manufacturing, controlling, purchasing, selling or transferring a firearm as provided by section 6105.
(xiv) An individual who is prohibited from possessing or acquiring a firearm under the statutes of the United States.

There is nothing in there which would let a sheriff deny an application for out-of-county references, nor for failing to produce a tax receipt.

They have to base their investigation on something.

Indeed, which is why it's convenient that the statute specifies what they're supposed to base their investigation on, and there's nothing in there about in-county references nor about tax receipts:

(d) Sheriff to conduct investigation.--The sheriff to whom the application is made shall:
(1) investigate the applicant's record of criminal conviction;
(2) investigate whether or not the applicant is under indictment for or has ever been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment exceeding one year;
(3) investigate whether the applicant's character and reputation are such that the applicant will not be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety;
(4) investigate whether the applicant would be precluded from receiving a license under subsection (e)(1) or section 6105(h) (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms); and
(5) conduct a criminal background, juvenile delinquency and mental health check following the procedures set forth in section 6111 (relating to sale or transfer of firearms), receive a unique approval number for that inquiry and record the date and number on the application.

[mpan72]

I just love people jumping in on these discussions about what is law what isn't law what is legal what isn't legal. We all know that there's no LAW that says the references MUST be from the same county. As far as that goes, there's no LAW that says you have to submit your Berkheimers from the most recent year either. And to be accused of "rolling over" is insulting. What IS LAW is that the Sheriff is in charge of conducting the background check and that leaves a lot open to interpretation. They have to base their investigation on something. I urge anyone with huge pockets to go literally fight city hall otherwise keep the insults to yourself and follow the process. I just renewed mine and the thought that I have to kiss these peoples' butts, especially Sgt Macaroni behind that desk....well I'd rather chew on a piece of dog crap...but that's how it goes so until someone can afford to fight it just do as they ask...and interestingly enough, even after living here 11 years I myself had trouble finding a second Monroe County reference. If I had to find 3 or 4 I'd be screwed.

The most appropriate response to the OP was someone willing to be that second reference. Not arbiters of gun law.

Or you can help get that sheriff "unelected" and not have to choose between eating dog shit and accepting official oppression.

[Mike35]

I would vote against Martin any time I have the opportunity. I am not sure I personally am qualified to run against him.

I have made calls and written to Corbett on down to the Attorney General. I am at a loss as to what else I could possibly do. If you have some suggestion as to how I could successfully fight this oppression without running for office myself or it costing me money (since currently I am unemployed) I would appreciate hearing it since I am at a loss.

In the meantime, my LTCF has expired. I ended up in emergency surgery a few weeks ago and it fell by the wayside. I would like to get it again. If anyone is willing to serve as a Monroe county reference for me I would provide whatever information you deem applicable so that you feel comfortable in doing so. I am 41 years old and the only blemish on my record at all is a speeding ticket when I was 19 :P

If you are willing to lend me a hand in this endeavor I appreciate it, kindly PM me. I would like to start getting out and being more social in the coming months when I feel better since I have been keeping to myself for a long time. I would appreciate range buddy as well.

If you can't or won't help, no problem, I appreciate you taking the time to read this nonetheless. Take care all.

[twency]

You might find your answer here (from upthread):

Sometimes, it's easier to bend with the wind instead of planning for a lawsuit (I make money from lawsuits, so feel free to ignore this.)

The easiest path is to notice that there's no minimum requirement for what kind of reference the people are. Doesn't have to be a life-long buddy or the guy whose life you saved in the Mekong Valley of AfghanistNam. In fact, they rule out the people who know you best, like family or cohabiting girlfriends or roommates.

You could list the state Representative for your district. The chief of police. The mayor. The school board president. Drop them a line, ask them if they'd like to make a taxpaying voter happy and fulfill a bogus requirement, since the issuing authority is going to run a PICS check on you anyway.

Read Sun Tzu, there's more than one way to win a battle. Head-on, or through good, honest guile.

[PoconoJo]

(3) investigate whether the applicant's character and reputation are such that the applicant will not be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety;

That right there is what is open to interpretation Mr. IANAL and if you read the first words of my post you would see that I don't give a crap about anyone's personal interpretation of what is law and what is not. If you're so concerned about what's going on then initiate a lawsuit otherwise shut up.