preemption violation.. Quakertown memorial park

[yeager484]

I'll be attending a birthday party there tomorrow so this is short notice for me, but I'm quite certain they're violating preemption..

I plan on open carrying and by how I'm reading this I should be okay. This is a poorly written article imo, and I'm just posting here to clarify...and to alert Quakertown residents who may be able to attend any city meetings to bring this preemption violation up. I'll help in any way possible, if letters/phone calls need to be made (not exactly sure how to go about that as an out of towner).

Thanks for any input/help.

http://www.wfmz.com/news/news-region...x/-/index.html

During a work session Monday night, Quakertown Borough Council briefly reviewed the legal wording of a park ordinance that notes they cannot prohibit firearms in parks that will coincide with Pennsylvania law.

The changes, which are scheduled to go to vote at their borough council’s regular April 3rd meeting, would not actually allow firearms in the park, according borough Manager Scott McElree, it’s that firearms would not prohibited, so long as they are not concealed. Weapons, however, would still be prohibited on borough lands.

Monday night’s discussion on the subject originated from the Parks & Recreation Committee Chairman Daniel Williams. Other reports included updates from the Planning & Zoning, Revenue and Finance and Public Utilities Committees.

[Curmudgeon]

Proof-reading is a lost art at WFMZ.

[yeager484]

Proof-reading is a lost art at WFMZ.

Yeah, aside from just being poorly worded, I think what they need, is to use more commas, that, always, helps.

(redacted)
Not sure if that's a great idea, though.

[yeager484]

Then we have this...
http://ecode360.com/14359654

[Ord. 855, 2/7/1979, § 1; as amended by Res. 24-81, 10/7/1981, § 1; by Res. 30-84, 9/1/1984; by Ord. 1039, 8/6/1997, §§ I, II; by Ord. 1048, 7/1/1998, § 1; by Ord. 1058, 7/5/2000, § 1; and by Ord. 1143, 3/5/2008]

1. The following activities are prohibited on all municipal parks, lands and facilities:

A. The use or possession of any alcoholic beverages.

B. The cutting, mutilation, or removal of trees, shrubs or flowers.

C. The defacing or removal of any sign, poster, building or other municipal property.

D. Indecent language and disorderly conduct.

E. Hunting or molesting of wild animals.

F. The possession of firearms or other weapons.

And this considerably better written article, even if it makes no sense lol

http://www.wfmz.com/news/news-region...1/-/index.html

snippet..

"Open Carry" Section 6120 states that "No county, municipality or township may in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession, transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition components when carried or transported for purposes not prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth."

Quakertown Borough Council discussed at their work meeting Monday evening to change their park ordinance which states that the possession of firearms and weapons are prohibited from their parks, lands and facilities, only to be in line with the state law. In Pennsylvania, the state cannot restrict the transportation or possession of an open carry firearm.

"It's not that we're allowing firearms in the park," Borough Manager, Scott C. McElree, said, to clarify, "We're not prohibiting firearms in the park."

As long as a firearm is openly carried, if the vote passes, registered gun owners cannot be prohibited from bringing their firearms on public land. The gun has to be visible, displayed on the owners body in a "open" fashion; concealed weapons on Borough property without a permit is still a serious criminal offense.

So I guess §6120 is hereby to be called the open carry statute

[FNG19]

Not sure if that's a great idea, though.

I'm positive it's a bad idea. The police are not arbiters of what's legal or illegal. There is absolutely no reason for you to get their permission or to inform them. Doing so would be foolish.

That said, it appears that the Borough prohibits firearms in parks. If your intention is to disregard that prohibition, be prepared to fight it out in court. If you're not prepared to do so, then leave it at home.

[yeager484]

I'm positive it's a bad idea. The police are not arbiters of what's legal or illegal. There is absolutely no reason for you to get their permission or to inform them. Doing so would be foolish.

That said, it appears that the Borough prohibits firearms in parks. If your intention is to disregard that prohibition, be prepared to fight it out in court. If you're not prepared to do so, then leave it at home.

Yeah, I realize calling them wouldn't be so wise.

paging GunLawyer001, mind if I give you a call tomorrow if I end up in a bind?


eta By what I'm reading they know they can't have this law and it seems like they voted appropriately but I haven't found a resource I'm confident in yet.

[yeager484]

Alright, I found this (PDF) http://www.quakertown-pa.gov/Modules...documentid=852

PARKS & RECREATION COMMITTEE
Councilman Williams read Ordinance 1199, revising the Park Ordinance, in full.
RESOLVED, That, Ordinance 1199, an amendment to the Code of Ordinances of the
Borough of Quakertown, Chapter 16, Part 1, §101(1. F), deleting the term firearms in the
regulations for municipal facilities, be passed finally. Motion of Councilman Williams,
seconded by Councilman Rosenberger. A roll call vote was taken and the motion was
unanimously carried (Councilman Scholl absent).

So it looks like they straightened it out. If anyone can weigh in to confirm that I should be smooth sailing I'd appreciate it.

[GunLawyer001]

Yeah, I realize calling them wouldn't be so wise.

paging GunLawyer001, mind if I give you a call tomorrow if I end up in a bind?


eta By what I'm reading they know they can't have this law and it seems like they voted appropriately but I haven't found a resource I'm confident in yet.

Heck, I live in Q-town. Call me up and I can be there in 5 minutes.

I honestly wouldn't worry about it. The borough can't impose anything other than a summary offense, and THAT would clearly be preempted. So what you're left with is a park management "rule", under which they could ask you to leave the park. Which they could also ask for pretty much any other reason, like "not wearing shoes" or "being too loud" or "too many people in the park".

It's baffling how they (journalists, cops and politicians) get so confused about open carry, concealed carry, "registered" gun owners, etc. Licensed concealed carry is perfectly legal, but only open carry is likely to get them excited. So if you're licensed, carry concealed at the park, unless you want to experience unjustified harassment from a small PD.

FWIW, I've had good experiences with the QPD, I spotted a couple of probable meth heads stealing a neighbor's quad a few weeks ago and they showed up within maybe 3 minutes. Got the quad back, I have to testify at the prelim soon. And this was not the first instance of local douchebags pilfering from the neighbors that I've seen, reported and caused arrests for.

[yeager484]

Heck, I live in Q-town. Call me up and I can be there in 5 minutes.

I honestly wouldn't worry about it. The borough can't impose anything other than a summary offense, and THAT would clearly be preempted. So what you're left with is a park management "rule", under which they could ask you to leave the park. Which they could also ask for pretty much any other reason, like "not wearing shoes" or "being too loud" or "too many people in the park".

It's baffling how they (journalists, cops and politicians) get so confused about open carry, concealed carry, "registered" gun owners, etc. Licensed concealed carry is perfectly legal, but only open carry is likely to get them excited. So if you're licensed, carry concealed at the park, unless you want to experience unjustified harassment from a small PD.

FWIW, I've had good experiences with the QPD, I spotted a couple of probable meth heads stealing a neighbor's quad a few weeks ago and they showed up within maybe 3 minutes. Got the quad back, I have to testify at the prelim soon. And this was not the first instance of local douchebags pilfering from the neighbors that I've seen, reported and caused arrests for.

Thanks for the offer and advice, if it were just me walking my dog I guess I'd open carry and see how it plays out...being it's a family gathering you're probably right that concealing would be preferential.

Thanks again.

[clhaberle]

I would say Quakertown PD has been a non issue for me when I carry what I would call somewhat openly. IWB, with retention, but almost exclusively with a shirt tucked in behind the gun. I prefer this as it catches on fewer things than an OWB and doesn't move as much as my tuckable IWB holsters.

That said I have only been asked once, by police, about my gun and that was as I arrived and walked onto the scene where my wife had been rear ended about 15 min before.

The exchange included, in its entirety;

Cop: who are you
Me: Her husband
Cop: Why do you have a gun
Me: I always have a gun
Cop: OK

I can say I am sure of a few other times where I know a cop has noticed but never said a word. I have carried at memorial park numerous times without issue and in Quakertown in general for 6 years with never another negative encounter from anyone.

Granted I do expect that may be more relevant to general lack of notice and less "i do it all the time and no one cares".