Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #471
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    Default Re: Issues with a rally this coming June in Erie.

    Wow. Conal, could you recap what you know has been done so far that required a lawyer? Without re-reading the entire thread, I was thinking it was just filing an injunction with the PASC to stop Erie from enforcing the law, a day at the Magistrates office for the hearing and filing an appeal for that ruling. I know about the letter that was sent to Erie but with all the errors in that letter I have a hard time believing a lawyer even read it let alone wrote it. My thinking was that it was just done by an intern or something.[/QUOTE]

    Not really sure who wrote the letter. Basically, the letters to the city that they were violating preemption were done pro bono. Every thing else from then on, started costing money. Filing briefs, filing suit, filing for the injunction. The first denial for the injunction, the appeal, etc and so forth.

    Then, during the rally when he came up, he was representing everyone that was there.

    And of course, he is now working for 8 people who received citations.


    Just to let everyone know. There have been requests for information. Justin was a member here, but was banned ages ago.
    There is currently some places that are being updated as much as possible.

    The facebook: https://www.facebook.com/OpenCarryPennsylvania
    The website (currently under construction) http://www.opencarrypennsylvania.com/
    The forum(Under construction) http://opencarrypa.boards.net/


    Through those links, the contact us goes right to Justin. He knows that there are alot of questions. And is more than willing to answer.
    I'm so fast, I can bump fire a bolt action.

  2. #472
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    Default Re: Issues with a rally this coming June in Erie.

    I never understood the purpose of the injunction, stopping the EPD from arresting and citing those with firearms in the park during an event that had yet to happen. The city threatened this action, and cited the law (though incorrectly) that would be broken. How does an injunction stop a threat (serious question)?

    It seemed more reasonable to use those monies to fight the citations (once given), and show the inapplicability of the law as it pertains to certain actions. IANAL.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggies Coach View Post
    Cause white people are awesome. Happy now......LOL.

  3. #473
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    Default Re: Issues with a rally this coming June in Erie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gun View Post
    I never understood the purpose of the injunction
    In my layman's understanding, an injunction is a Court Order to do or refrain from doing something. This could, for example, prohibit Group X from protesting any closer than 50 yards from the entrance of John Doe's business, prohibit the enforcement of a particular regulation/ordinance/whatever, etc. It can be a permanent or temporary, and the latter is usually used to ensure something does/doesn't happen while a legal proceeding surrounding whatever is being Ordered is in motion.

    Violating a court order is serious business.
    Last edited by FNG19; September 22nd, 2013 at 10:17 AM.

  4. #474
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    Erie, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Issues with a rally this coming June in Erie.

    After reading this,

    A court shall issue a preliminary or special injunction only after written notice and hearing unless it appears to the satisfaction of the court that immediate and irreparable injury will be sustained before notice can be given or a hearing held, in which case the court may issue a preliminary or special injunction without a hearing or without notice.
    http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/23...500/s1531.html

    what irreparable injury (harm) would have occurred? Does being cited with a summary(?) offense represent irreparable injury? IANAL, just asking questions as in was this the best way to spend monies, or was it just to put the city of Erie on notice?
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  5. #475
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    Erie, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Issues with a rally this coming June in Erie.

    I didn't see this posted yet, but

    An Erie County district judge listened to the evidence this afternoon but did not immediately rule on whether eight men violated a city ordinance by carrying guns into Perry Square during a gun-rights rally in late June.

    Erie police testified the men were either seen or photographed armed with guns during the June 22 rally after being warned that it was against the law to carry a gun into the park.

    The defendants' lawyer, Joshua Prince of Bechtelsville, Berks County, argued that the ordinance itself is invalid under state law and that the city, in any event, failed to prove it was violated.

    Those cited were Justin Dillon, 26, of Erie, who organized the rally, and Edward J. Tenon, 33, of Erie; Christopher Phillips, 45, of Erie; Jay Ziegler, 32, of Erie; Donald L. Davis, 34, of Catasauqua, a suburb of Allentown; Allen E. Lepley, 34, of Canonsburg; Ryan R. Avidne, 21, of Erie; and Brian Shank, 49, of Erie.

    If convicted, the men each face a fine of $100 to $300, and up to 90 days in jail if they don't pay it.

    Erie 4th Ward District Judge Tom Robie will decide the case.
    http://www.goerie.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...d%3A-5%3A08-pm)
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  6. #476
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    Default Re: Issues with a rally this coming June in Erie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gun View Post
    If you give the court alternative reasons to find the defendants not guilty, then you aren't challenging the law. If you argue that the Erie defendants are not guilty because the police never examined their guns, then all you achieve is spending tens of thousands of dollars to save 8 guys up to $300 each. That's not worthy of donations, in my opinion. That does nothing at all for the gun owning public, except ensure that the next group suckered into another publicity stunt will have their guns seized, and THEN be cited.

    The way to strike down a law is to lose (which seems to be happening), and then appeal using the sole argument that the law itself is invalid, either by preemption or because it's unconstitutional. That's the only way that such a case is worth public contributions, and the only way that it's worth the risk to the guinea pigs who put themselves at risk.

    Nobody gambles when the best outcome is "we don't lose", and the worst outcome is "we lose a lot". There should be a "winning" option as well. The point is not to run into the fire without getting burned. The point is to put out the fire.

    When I handled the case in MontCo for the fine gentleman who was charged with having his licensed handgun inside a bag in his locked car in the parking lot of a Vo-Tech school, the only defense we put forward was that "self-defense is an 'other lawful purpose'", meaning that the acquittal we achieved discouraged other DA's from taking such cases to trial. To my knowledge, it remains the only case taken to trial where the sole alleged crime was peaceable possession of a firearm on school property. Had we failed, we would have seen more prosecutions.

    We asked for donations in our "other lawful purpose" case because it was an important issue, and the case would either hurt us or help us all. It wasn't planned in advance, I didn't encourage him to do it, I didn't even know the lad until after he was charged. The defendant was drawn into it involuntarily, the DA made no offers of any sort of plea deal, the trial was going to proceed. That case had a good ending, despite it not being planned in advance. My total billed time to win that case was under $8K, and I didn't feel the need to send any press releases out.

    The Erie case, not so much. It was done on purpose, yet without any real planning, from what I read here.

    If a plumber encouraged you to push your pipes to the limit, and they burst, and he then told you that he'd need maybe $40-50K to fix them back to where they were before he intervened, just how grateful would you be that he agreed to take time payments? At some point, the plumber gets some blame for the bad advice up front. And you stop listening to that plumber.

    I've said for years that preemption means AT LEAST that a local government can't criminalize simple possession, on the streets or even on its own lands (such as municipal buildings or parks). That part should be a no-brainer, and I doubt that many municipal solicitors had any doubts about it, before this.

    What is NOT so clear is whether a town can have non-penal "rules" about gun-free zones on property managed by the town. That's something that a WalMart or a Starbucks can do, and it's not "regulation" for them to have policies whereby they ask you to leave if you have a gun. THAT question could go either way, and a really careful selection of venue is required to avoid another Quilici v Village of Morton Grove disaster.

    It appears that the Erie case is only about the first part, the penal statute. If this is lost in Common Pleas, that would be bad. If it's appealed again and we lose in the appellate court, that would be a disaster. Which is why I suggested that the DJ ruling be the end of this, that the fines be paid and the firearms community wait for a better time and place to get such laws struck down.

    To paraphrase myself: The criminal justice system is not some game that you can play with loose change and a pure heart. It's a big fucking hammer waiting to smash you, and the system mostly doesn't like you because you're an evil gun owner.

    It's hard to believe that these folks CHOSE to do this, without a legal budget, despite the injunction not happening, and with the advice of the only guy making money and headlines off of this fiasco. This wasn't a few guys without much money making a spontaneous decision to go to Vegas for the weekend. This was an intentional decision to commit acts in violation of clear ordinances, with the understanding that they might get arrested and charged, yet without any resources to defend against those charges through the appellate courts.

    Baffling. Might as well provoke a bear attack and hope that you stumble across a gun in time.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  7. #477
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    Default Re: Issues with a rally this coming June in Erie.

    Regardless of what happens, one can still park on S. Park Row, across from the EPD and next to Perry Square, walk the sidewalk bordering Perry Square to State Street, head north while walking next to Perry Square up to the next block where a Starbucks is, get coffee, then return and leave, all the while OC'ing.

    Apparently the threat to wildlife and humans does not exist if one stays on the sidewalk, while legally carrying a firearm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggies Coach View Post
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  8. #478
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    Springtown, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Issues with a rally this coming June in Erie.

    Greetings,

    GunLawyer001, you've made this point quite a few times. I pretty much agree, HOWEVER..................regardless of how things happened, we've got the situation that is in front of us now. As they say, we have lemons. What do we need to make lemonade now? I really fear far reaching negative implications across the state IF Erie can get away with this. Again, perhaps it's not the ideal case, but it's the case we have. How about some constructive ideas on how to proceed (I'm not picking on you, seriously asking for advice).

    If things had gone wrong in D-Town or Morrisville, wouldn't we be in the same situation? Did we just get lucky at those?


    Regards, Jim


    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    It's hard to believe that these folks CHOSE to do this, without a legal budget, despite the injunction not happening, and with the advice of the only guy making money and headlines off of this fiasco. This wasn't a few guys without much money making a spontaneous decision to go to Vegas for the weekend. This was an intentional decision to commit acts in violation of clear ordinances, with the understanding that they might get arrested and charged, yet without any resources to defend against those charges through the appellate courts.

    Baffling. Might as well provoke a bear attack and hope that you stumble across a gun in time.

  9. #479
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    Default Re: Issues with a rally this coming June in Erie.

    I disagree with a lot of what gunlawyer writes on here. I think he's arrogant at times, and at other times, rude. What I do know, though, is that the guy is smart, and very good at what he does.

    I'm friends with the other attorney on Facebook. In his posts I see a lot of self-importance and self-aggrandizement. Everyday. The wrong attorney handled this case.
    There's no such thing as a free lunch.

  10. #480
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    Default Re: Issues with a rally this coming June in Erie.

    I think he's saying to the participants, pay the fine. Wait for another time to push the issue. Cut your losses, and ours. [my translation only; IANAL]

    Quote Originally Posted by jim-analog View Post
    Greetings,

    GunLawyer001, you've made this point quite a few times. I pretty much agree, HOWEVER..................regardless of how things happened, we've got the situation that is in front of us now. As they say, we have lemons. What do we need to make lemonade now? I really fear far reaching negative implications across the state IF Erie can get away with this. Again, perhaps it's not the ideal case, but it's the case we have. How about some constructive ideas on how to proceed (I'm not picking on you, seriously asking for advice).

    If things had gone wrong in D-Town or Morrisville, wouldn't we be in the same situation? Did we just get lucky at those?


    Regards, Jim

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