SEPTA PD - Open Carry Training needed

[Sgt.K]

I’m going to trim this down as far as I can, so bear with me.

Last Saturday (4/13) I joined some other PAFOA folks at Love Park to (fruitlessly) attempt re-education of Mayors Against Guns and their associated groups. I was OCing my Taurus PT1911 in a super tuck clone IWB holster at 3:30. I had my outer shirt covering it on the way to the park and tucked the shirt in when I got there. I left the park around 14:00 and hit the 15th Street El platform around 14:10. A few minutes later the pleasant part of my day ended.

I was approached by a SEPTA PD patrol officer (#1) and made to immediately assume the position so he could disarm me. I turned on my pocket audio recorder as I turned, and I got just about every word. I notified him that there was a round in the chamber and he would need to take it off safe to clear it – he was undeterred. By the time he managed to get it out and clear it I turned around to find at least 5 more officers between me and the rest of the crowd. I produced my LTCF immediately upon request. While he wrote up the encounter the other officers gave me a plethora of misinterpreted or flat-out made-up laws/regulations that I was violating. I was eventually informed that I would be escorted off SEPTA property, given a refund, and then be free to go. Once past the turnstiles the Sgt showed up. His first words – to no one in particular – were, “Let me guess, we have a stupid individual open carrying on the system, right?” Officer #1 told him I had a permit. Then Sgt said to me, “In the city of Philadelphia you may not carry on public transportation open carry.” Throughout the encounter I asked to see any signage or documentation to back up any of their claims – NADA. Tried to convince Sgt he was wrong –if you can’t figure out how well *that* worked, give it a try some time. Sgt gave me his direct number to call him so he could fax me the relevant paperwork. I was allowed to get back into the system with my loaded firearm, as long as I kept it covered.

Sgt was off Sunday and Monday, and I gave him until Thursday to gather the information before I called. The phone rang for quite a while before I got a message saying “The machine is off.” Ooooo Kay… Looked all over septa.org, no mention of any firearm regulations. Called Customer Service asking where I could find anything about firearms – they spent 10-15 minutes before telling me they couldn’t find anything (I wonder why ), then transferred me to SEPTA PD. The person who answered the phone remembered an email from within the past few months that spoke about this. After another 10-15 minutes he tracked down the email and forwarded it to me. The attachments included a PDF of a PowerPoint presentation titled Open Carrying of Firearms. *Now* we’re cooking with gas. Included in the presentation was the following:

What to do when you encounter a person openly carrying a firearm within Philadelphia County

• Notify dispatch/fellow officers by radio that you are conducting a check of an individual openly carrying a firearm. Other officers should not race to the scene or escalate the situation.
• Calmly approach the individual, identify yourself (“I am Officer Smith of SEPTA Police.”). Ask the person to step aside and speak privately, if possible. Then ask to see the individual’s permit (even thought [sic] the firearm is carried openly, see Title 18, Section 6122).
• DO NOT take possession of the firearm at this time.
• If the individual has a valid license to carry a firearm, thank the individual for his/her cooperation, end the encounter, and document the encounter.

Got ‘em.

I sent an INformal complaint to the Chief on Friday, copying the email in its entirety at the bottom, describing the encounter I had with his personnel. I also copied every supervisor listed on the original email – except the Sgt I met. I mentioned that I was not filing a formal complaint, but had not yet ruled it out. The Chief replied to my email in about 30 minutes with:

Sgt.K, Thank you for taking the time to email me about your negative contact with the Transit Police. The Department's Internal Affairs will be initiating an investigation and I would very much appreciate your cooperation and assistance. SGT Dougherty will be contacting you on Monday.

Sgt Dougherty called me Monday, and we will be setting up a time to record a statement. From talking with him it *sounds* like the Chief is more concerned with how I got the PowerPoint than he is with what happened to me. We shall see.

I now welcome all constructive input y’all have for me.

ETA Link to Training doc: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwmC...it?usp=sharing

ETA Link to Chief's Letter: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwmC...it?usp=sharing

[Bill67]

See, not all students pay attention in class. Way to go. You didn't give in and I thank you for that.
Rep sent

[GsTaurus]

My .02, I think your doing the right thing. As a former active LEO, it makes us all look bad when you operate outside of the prescribed proccedures. Clearly these individuals lacked proper training on this topic.

If it was me, I would have been down right furious (inside, I would have kept my calm on the outside obvisouly) with a Septa PD "disarming" me for no good reason, especially after you produced your LTCFA.

I certinly hope the SEPTA chief is not conducting this just to determine who "Leaked" the powerpoint to you. I hope his true intentions are to identify the officers involved and ensure they receive proper training on future encounters.

[Grey Bearded One]

Reminds me of an something that happened to me about 35 years ago. I asked the cop to send me a copy of the requisite laws and never saw them. As I was once told by a cop, "I don't care. Take it to court."

[ROCK-IT3]

First of all, good work on following up on your situation. Second, do not tell him where you got the power point, that is not relevant to the way you were treated. Third, Sgt. Dougherty? Hopefully not the idiot who accosted Viper! I hope that idiot isn't working in internal affairs, or handling open carry education (although it may keep him off the steert).

[zswartley]

Any way you could forward that PDF??

zswartley1214@gmail.com

[XavierBK]

Post that powerpoint up on Google Drive.

[BenGlock]

I suggest that, if asked, you refuse to divulge who disclosed the Powerpoint presentation to you and steer the conversation back to the way you were treated and the fact that it is NOT illegal to carry a firearm, openly or concealed, on SEPTA as long as you have an LTCF. On a side note, I think the officer was in the right to ask to see your LTCF since you were in Philadelphia and, furthermore, were technically carrying in a vehicle. I also think the officer was within his rights to temporarily disarm you while he checked the validity of your LTCF.

I’m going to trim this down as far as I can, so bear with me.

Last Saturday (4/13) I joined some other PAFOA folks at Love Park to (fruitlessly) attempt re-education of Mayors Against Guns and their associated groups. I was OCing my Taurus PT1911 in a super tuck clone IWB holster at 3:30. I had my outer shirt covering it on the way to the park and tucked the shirt in when I got there. I left the park around 14:00 and hit the 15th Street El platform around 14:10. A few minutes later the pleasant part of my day ended.

I was approached by a SEPTA PD patrol officer (#1) and made to immediately assume the position so he could disarm me. I turned on my pocket audio recorder as I turned, and I got just about every word. I notified him that there was a round in the chamber and he would need to take it off safe to clear it – he was undeterred. By the time he managed to get it out and clear it I turned around to find at least 5 more officers between me and the rest of the crowd. I produced my LTCF immediately upon request. While he wrote up the encounter the other officers gave me a plethora of misinterpreted or flat-out made-up laws/regulations that I was violating. I was eventually informed that I would be escorted off SEPTA property, given a refund, and then be free to go. Once past the turnstiles the Sgt showed up. His first words – to no one in particular – were, “Let me guess, we have a stupid individual open carrying on the system, right?” Officer #1 told him I had a permit. Then Sgt said to me, “In the city of Philadelphia you may not carry on public transportation open carry.” Throughout the encounter I asked to see any signage or documentation to back up any of their claims – NADA. Tried to convince Sgt he was wrong –if you can’t figure out how well *that* worked, give it a try some time. Sgt gave me his direct number to call him so he could fax me the relevant paperwork. I was allowed to get back into the system with my loaded firearm, as long as I kept it covered.

Sgt was off Sunday and Monday, and I gave him until Thursday to gather the information before I called. The phone rang for quite a while before I got a message saying “The machine is off.” Ooooo Kay… Looked all over septa.org, no mention of any firearm regulations. Called Customer Service asking where I could find anything about firearms – they spent 10-15 minutes before telling me they couldn’t find anything (I wonder why ), then transferred me to SEPTA PD. The person who answered the phone remembered an email from within the past few months that spoke about this. After another 10-15 minutes he tracked down the email and forwarded it to me. The attachments included a PDF of a PowerPoint presentation titled Open Carrying of Firearms. *Now* we’re cooking with gas. Included in the presentation was the following:



[B]Got ‘em.

I sent an INformal complaint to the Chief on Friday, copying the email in its entirety at the bottom, describing the encounter I had with his personnel. I also copied every supervisor listed on the original email – except the Sgt I met. I mentioned that I was not filing a formal complaint, but had not yet ruled it out. The Chief replied to my email in about 30 minutes with:



Sgt Dougherty called me Monday, and we will be setting up a time to record a statement. From talking with him it *sounds* like the Chief is more concerned with how I got the PowerPoint than he is with what happened to me. We shall see.

I now welcome all constructive input y’all have for me.

[RebelRaider5]

Post that powerpoint up on Google Drive.

Seconded, Please be nice and share

BenGlock- He wasn't in a vehicle, He was standing on a platform. Kind of messed up you basically said you have no problem with cops not following protocol. Would you say that if it happened to you?

[.45Kimber1911]

I suggest that, if asked, you refuse to divulge who disclosed the Powerpoint presentation to you and steer the conversation back to the way you were treated and the fact that it is NOT illegal to carry a firearm, openly or concealed, on SEPTA as long as you have an LTCF. On a side note, I think the officer was in the right to ask to see your LTCF since you were in Philadelphia and, furthermore, were technically carrying in a vehicle. I also think the officer was within his rights to temporarily disarm you while he checked the validity of your LTCF.

1. The OP stated that he was approached by an officer while standing on the platform and was not in a vehicle as the encounter occurred.

2. The officer does not have a right to violate the OP's 4th Amendment right.

There was no mention of suspicion of creating a criminal act or witness to the fact. The investigating officer handled the situation wrong according to the information provided. Had the officer followed the written procedure, he would not have violated the OP's rights.

If the police do not feel safe with people legally carrying firearms and feel the need to break the law when they encounter these situations, I suggest that they reconsider their line of work and make an assessment as to whether they are morally qualified to performed the tasks that are outline as part of the job requirement. If not, maybe reconsider a job that is less scary like an ice cream truck driver.