Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Rise in accidental gunshots by L.A. County deputies follows new firearm

    My girlfriend sent me this article. This is just shitty training and shitty attitudes...

    Rise in accidental gunshots by L.A. County deputies follows new firearm

    One sheriff's deputy shot himself in the leg while pulling out his gun to confront a suspect.

    Another accidentally fired a bullet in a restroom stall. A third deputy stumbled over a stroller in a closet as he was searching for a suspect, squeezing off a round that went through a wall and lodged in a piece of furniture in the next room.

    Accidental gunshots by Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies have more than doubled in two years, endangering bystanders and occasionally injuring deputies. The jump coincides with the department's move to a new handgun that lacks a safety lever and requires less pressure to pull the trigger.

    Sheriff's officials say that the increase in accidental discharges — from 12 in 2012 to 30 last year — occurred because deputies were adjusting to the new gun. They expect the numbers to fall in the years ahead. So far this year, the department has recorded seven accidental discharges, five of which involved the new weapon.

    But the problems may not be over, as more deputies switch to the Smith & Wesson M&P9. In response, department officials have imposed extra training requirements.

    The M&P has obvious benefits. It is easier to shoot accurately, can be fired more reliably under stress and is a better fit for people with small hands. The switch was prompted in part by the threat of a lawsuit by women who had failed the Sheriff's Academy. More recruits — including more women — are now passing the firearms test, and veteran deputies are also logging better scores at the firing range.

    But the sharp increase in accidental discharges has prompted an investigation by the Sheriff's Department's new inspector general. Critics say this type of semiautomatic, which is widespread in law enforcement and includes the Glock used by many agencies, is too easy to misfire.

    At the New York Police Department, a rookie officer is facing criminal charges, including negligent homicide, in a fatal shooting in a housing project stairwell. An attorney for the officer says he accidentally fired his department-issued Glock.

    A former Los Angeles Police Department officer who was paralyzed when his 3-year-old son shot him with a Glock has sued the gun manufacturer and others, alleging that the light trigger pull and lack of a safety mechanism contributed to the accident.

    Bob Owens, editor of BearingArms.com, says the design of the Glock and the M&P makes such tragedies more likely. "I don't think, with the amount of training most agencies have, that a gun that has so few tolerances for mistakes is the best choice," he said.

    An adjustment

    For two decades, L.A. County sheriff's deputies carried the Beretta 92F, a heavy metal gun with a large grip.

    People with small hands often have trouble flipping up the Beretta's safety as they prepare to fire. The first shot requires 12 to 15 pounds of pressure on the trigger, forcing some to use two fingers and reducing shooting accuracy for many. Subsequent shots take about 4 pounds of pressure.

    The M&P is made of lightweight polymer, with a hand grip that comes in three sizes. Firing a round is as simple as pulling the trigger with a consistent 6 to 8 pounds of pressure.

    Sheriff's deputies have the option of sticking with the Beretta, and some have, saying they are used to it. But many who have switched to the M&P say their shooting has improved.

    "At first, I thought, 'No way, I'm keeping my Beretta forever,'" said Sgt. Mike Rafter, a firearms instructor. "Then I started shooting, and it's a lot nicer. I can shoot better, and I'm more confident."

    Academy trainees began receiving M&Ps in 2011 and the rest of the department began gradually switching to the new gun soon after. About half of sworn personnel are now using the M&P and more are changing over. As more deputies converted to the M&P, accidental discharges rose.

    In 2012, there were 12 accidental discharges, none involving the M&P. In 2013, there were 18, eight of which were M&Ps. Of the 30 incidents in 2014, 22 involved M&Ps.

    Assistant Sheriff Todd Rogers attributed the increase to deputies still adjusting to the lack of a safety on the new gun.

    "The vast majority were people trained on the Beretta," Rogers said. "There is a correlation, no doubt about it."

    A Beretta spokesperson did not return a phone call seeking comment. A spokesperson for Smith & Wesson said the company does not speak publicly about the weapons it supplies to law enforcement.

    read the rest of the article (I only pasted 1/2 of it)

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Rise in accidental gunshots by L.A. County deputies follows new firearm

    I remember all the controversy over increased NDs when many departments went to Glocks.

    From the next to the last line above, "There is a correlation, no doubt about it." Is that correlation the gun or officer negligence? When toddlers shoot a parent or a cop is searching a closet with his finger on the trigger I don't see blame residing with the firearm or manufacturer. I see poor decisions and poor actions on the gun owner.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Rise in accidental gunshots by L.A. County deputies follows new firearm

    This seems like an easy fix!
    Do not put your finger on the trigger unless you are going to shoot!


    "ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
    When holding a gun, rest your finger on the trigger guard or along the side of the gun. Until you are actually ready to fire, do not touch the trigger."

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Rise in accidental gunshots by L.A. County deputies follows new firearm

    Yea this has nothing to do with the firearm. It has to do with putting incompetent people being given a firearm and the power of the badge.
    -=pardon me while I burn and rise above the flames=-

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Rise in accidental gunshots by L.A. County deputies follows new firearm

    A 4 pound trigger or a 12 pound trigger shouldn't make a difference if your safety and training practices are up to snuff. I'm pretty sure LAPD has been using the Glock 19 for years without these massive problems...

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Rise in accidental gunshots by L.A. County deputies follows new firearm

    A former Los Angeles Police Department officer who was paralyzed when his 3-year-old son shot him with a Glock has sued the gun manufacturer and others, alleging that the light trigger pull and lack of a safety mechanism contributed to the accident.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Rise in accidental gunshots by L.A. County deputies follows new firearm

    Sheriff's officials say that the increase in accidental discharges — from 12 in 2012 to 30 last year — occurred because deputies were adjusting to the new gun. They expect the numbers to fall in the years ahead. So far this year, the department has recorded seven accidental discharges, five of which involved the new weapon.

    But the problems may not be over, as more deputies switch to the Smith & Wesson M&P9. In response, department officials have imposed extra training requirements.

    They should have been in training BEFORE they fielded this piece. Do these characters treat their firearms as serious tools or as a theatrical prop? Sounds to me like "Here's your duty weapon. Have a nice day"

    What happened to all of the Deputees who AD'd? Were they disciplined? What sort of discipline did they have? We civilians would be held to account for any ADs, no doubt about it.

    The Rhodesian Military had a blanket policy - any Accidental Discharge was an offense. In contrast the South Africans did not punish ADs. Guess who had a lot more ADs? Free hint - they don't like to speak English.

    Accidents rarely happen to people who get good training and are held to account for accidents.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Rise in accidental gunshots by L.A. County deputies follows new firearm

    Quote Originally Posted by jthrelf View Post
    A 4 pound trigger or a 12 pound trigger shouldn't make a difference if your safety and training practices are up to snuff. I'm pretty sure LAPD has been using the Glock 19 for years without these massive problems...
    Before that Police agencies fielded double action revolvers for generations. A 3 ounce trigger won't fire if you keep your booger picker outside of the trigger guard... LA needs to devote some time, energy and money to training these guys.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Rise in accidental gunshots by L.A. County deputies follows new firearm

    Quote Originally Posted by NRA Member View Post
    This seems like an easy fix!
    Do not put your finger on the trigger unless you are going to shoot!
    I'll give you an easier and safer fix....if a cop can't safely handle a firearm don't let him carry one. Make both the cop and department training staff liable for NDs.
    The oracle is in. Age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill!!

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Rise in accidental gunshots by L.A. County deputies follows new firearm

    Booger Hook off the Bang Switch.... real simple.

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