Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #71
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    Default Re: Here's a reason to ask to see an LTCF.....

    1) A lot of us don't trust government not to keep records no matter what you get written into the legislation requiring background checks because a lot of us just don't trust government because

    2) we see how well the legislation against a registry has not worked at the state level and
    Pennsylvania is the classic case. We have wording right in the law about the prohibiting the registration of guns and they do it as just as plain as day and give us the middle finger salute as they do it. Why would we want a federal agency doing the same thing except when they want to confiscate your guns they will do it with armored vehicles and CS and flash bang grenades under the guise of anti terrorism. I was born at night just not last night. Expanded background checks is for the purpose of registration. If you don't believe it fill out the form SP4-113 and scroll down to line "E". This is a gun registration scheme that is being implemented by the Administration of the Pennsylvania State Police in clear violation of the law (unless you are a deaf, dumb, blind and or stupid Pennsylvania Supreme Court justice) You too can get an online Law Degree while you wait.


    http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal...ns-10-2008_pdf

    Although Pennsylvania’s statute appears to prohibit the state from maintaining a registry of any firearms, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled in Allegheny County Sportsmen’s League v. Rendell, 860 A.2d 10 (Pa. 2004), that the statute did not prohibit Pennsylvania’s database of handgun sales.

    http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx...WAR2-1986-2006
    Last edited by JenniferG; April 23rd, 2013 at 01:56 AM.
    Corruption is the default behavior of government officials. JPC

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Here's a reason to ask to see an LTCF.....

    Quote Originally Posted by JenniferG View Post
    Pennsylvania is the classic case. We have wording right in the law about the prohibiting the registration of guns and they do it as just as plain as day and give us the middle finger salute as they do it. Why would we want a federal agency doing the same thing except when they want to confiscate your guns they will do it with armored vehicles and CS and flash bang grenades under the guise of anti terrorism. I was born at night just not last night. Expanded background checks is for the purpose of registration. If you don't believe it fill out the form SP4-113 and scroll down to line "E". This is a gun registration scheme that is being implemented by the Pennsylvania State Police in clear violation of the law (unless you are a deaf, dumb, blind and or stupid Pennsylvania Supreme Court justice) You too can get an online Law Degree while you wait.


    http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal...ns-10-2008_pdf

    Although Pennsylvania’s statute appears to prohibit the state from maintaining a registry of any firearms, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled in Allegheny County Sportsmen’s League v. Rendell, 860 A.2d 10 (Pa. 2004), that the statute did not prohibit Pennsylvania’s database of handgun sales.
    I agree, which is why I suggested that the seller's due diligence be set up so that the government never gets the info on the gun in the first place.

    The worst lying, totalitarian govt you can imagine (or read about in current American media) can't misuse info that it doesn't have.

    Background checks are fundamentally about the person, not the gun, so you can easily verify the status of the person without inputting the superfluous info about the gun. It could be done as easily as you can check the status of your Amazon order, if we had the will, and the agreement to do "gun control" the way it should be done, as a means to deter the prohibited, not to set us up for eventual confiscation.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Here's a reason to ask to see an LTCF.....

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    Background checks are fundamentally about the person, not the gun, so you can easily verify the status of the person without inputting the superfluous info about the gun. It could be done as easily as you can check the status of your Amazon order, if we had the will, and the agreement to do "gun control" the way it should be done, as a means to deter the prohibited, not to set us up for eventual confiscation.
    Excellent paragraph. The way it's always proposed and discussed is proof that the implementation isn't about "proofing" the individual, it's about the guns and record-keeping. If you or I could call, or better yet, go on a website without ever providing any information about the firearm or whether a sale was completed, then I, too, might be on board.

    As it is, I'm more worried about Big Brother than I am someone who buys a gun from me.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Here's a reason to ask to see an LTCF.....

    Quote Originally Posted by farmplinker View Post
    Excellent paragraph. The way it's always proposed and discussed is proof that the implementation isn't about "proofing" the individual, it's about the guns and record-keeping. If you or I could call, or better yet, go on a website without ever providing any information about the firearm or whether a sale was completed, then I, too, might be on board.

    As it is, I'm more worried about Big Brother than I am someone who buys a gun from me.
    We could have a system where individuals opt-in. You agree to allow pretty much anyone to input your name, you provide something like your driver's license number, and they get a "yes" or "no". The system generates a ticket, gives the name and date and approval. The seller prints it out, keeps it, has proof that he did the check. Zero possibility of "registration" of guns.

    If you don't want to opt-in, if you don't want people to be able to fidn out that you appear to be subject to one of a few dozen prohibitors, or if you don;t want your name in another govt list (you're already in IRS and FBI and Selective Service and Social Security and DHS and local per-capita tax databases, among others) you can always go through an FFL.

    That's the idea. Most legislation won't come near that, but that concept COULD work without promoting the agenda of the gun-grabbers.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Here's a reason to ask to see an LTCF.....

    It's obvious to me from this thread that Anti-Gun Idiots
    are not the only ones who don't understand

    SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED
    AND
    SHALL NOT BE QUESTIONED

    Approximately 25000 Americans died in the Revolutionary War to bring this country to the point of FREEDOM where we could claim that the right to keep and bear arms (without question and without infringement) was exceedingly important... It cost those 25000 lives (and likely 10's or 100's of thousand other lives over the centuries) to be able to FREELY SAY THAT!!!

    It amazes me how long and hard supposed 2A supporters can work to try and find a compromise to the RKBA which SHOULD NOT BE QUESTIONED OR INFRINGED....

    The cost of reclaiming FREEDOM is stupendously higher than the cost to preserve it...

    ...

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Here's a reason to ask to see an LTCF.....

    Quote Originally Posted by ImminentDanger View Post
    It's obvious to me from this thread that Anti-Gun Idiots
    are not the only ones who don't understand

    SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED
    AND
    SHALL NOT BE QUESTIONED

    Approximately 25000 Americans died in the Revolutionary War to bring this country to the point of FREEDOM where we could claim that the right to keep and bear arms (without question and without infringement) was exceedingly important... It cost those 25000 lives (and likely 10's or 100's of thousand other lives over the centuries) to be able to FREELY SAY THAT!!!

    It amazes me how long and hard supposed 2A supporters can work to try and find a compromise to the RKBA which SHOULD NOT BE QUESTIONED OR INFRINGED....

    The cost of reclaiming FREEDOM is stupendously higher than the cost to preserve it...

    ...
    Is there a difference in your mind between those who disagree with you, and those who "don't understand"?

    The thing is, there's a difference between "the People" and individual persons.

    We as a people can't forfeit our right to be free of unreasonable searches and seizures. Bob Smith, on Main Street as a convicted criminal, did. He can have his prison cell searched on the whim of a guard, he can be subject to search without a warrant while out on parole. His freedoms can be restricted in other ways, long after his imprisonment and parole have ended.

    The govt can't grab individuals at random and imprison them, or place them into involuntary servitude. I would argue that the Selective Service did exactly that, and the draft was a Constitutional violation. But criminals can be imprisoned for however long the govt chooses to set a sentence. Implying that the govt could set conditions for release that would include forfeiture of certain rights. Because if they can take away ALL your rights and keep you in jail, then they certainly can take away some of them and let you go free.

    Laymen may not understand the difference between "The People" and "a person". But the Framers understood, and they assumed quite a few things about what a civilized society would have to do in order to prevent anarchy. That's why they didn't even bother limiting the Freedom f the Press by mentioning that you can't incite people to crime, you can't libel or slander someone without the state enforcing liability against you, you can't communicate with the enemy in time of war and tell them our secrets.

    Find me the spot in the Constitution where it allows you to be sued for defamation. That suit infringes your free speech rights. The Framers weren't morons, they understood the distinction between "shutting down the press" and "making individuals responsible for their own malicious speech."

    The People have a right to guns, all guns, including machineguns. The 1934 NFA is an abomination, it took away a substantive right from all of The People. But you as an individual citizen can forfeit your right to freedom, to vote, to be near children, to use the Internet, to travel, to hold public office, and to possess arms. Because you and your criminal buddies are not "The People", you're just people.

    The best example I can give, which none of the self-proclaimed "patriots" can answer well, is that the Constitution has no provision at all to allow the dangerously insane to be held against their will, or disarmed. Because that, too, was just assumed to exist as a police power of the States.

    Pennsylvania can't outlaw weapons in a way that brings into question our general right as a people to keep and bear arms. But PA's police powers include the right and obligation to "do something" about the small percentage of criminals and loonies who endanger the rest of us.

    I oppose all gun bans. I support disarmament of those who cannot or choose not to obey the laws against preying on the innocent.

    I understand that there's a difference between freedom and anarchy. Responsible adults shouldn't be forced to sacrifice any rights, except the right to hurt the innocent. Your freedom to swing your fist ends just before my nose begins. And your right to sell long guns to prohibited persons has never existed.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Here's a reason to ask to see an LTCF.....

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    We could have a system where individuals opt-in. You agree to allow pretty much anyone to input your name, you provide something like your driver's license number, and they get a "yes" or "no". The system generates a ticket, gives the name and date and approval. The seller prints it out, keeps it, has proof that he did the check. Zero possibility of "registration" of guns.

    If you don't want to opt-in, if you don't want people to be able to fidn out that you appear to be subject to one of a few dozen prohibitors, or if you don;t want your name in another govt list (you're already in IRS and FBI and Selective Service and Social Security and DHS and local per-capita tax databases, among others) you can always go through an FFL.

    That's the idea. Most legislation won't come near that, but that concept COULD work without promoting the agenda of the gun-grabbers.
    The problem with either of those options is the government is notified that Joe Blow is buying a firearm. And since he is identified - has to be in order to get approved - then there is a database of him buying a gun on a certain date. Now, that is vastly superior to the government also having a record of what exact gun he is buying, but it's still a record.

    Now, using a LTCF as evidence of presumed worthiness avoids that problem, as this is obtained in advance and is good for an extended period. But even this represents an infringement on the right to [buy,] keep and bear arms. Of all the ideas, this comes closest to representing a reasonable limitation, though.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Here's a reason to ask to see an LTCF.....

    Main problem for me would be the need for some sort of mandatory record keeping by the Seller.

    Seller Sam sells a rifle to Buyer Bob after calling 800-CheckyCheck. Bob comes up clean and Sam gets some sort of confirmation / transaction approval number that he would need to log into some sort of book as do current C&R license holders. A few years down the road Bob decides to off his wife and the ATF following the bouncing ball comes knocking on Sam's door asking for proof the sale was legit. Also, C&R license holders are subject to ATF inspections.

    Without mandatory record keeping any Seller could just say 'yeah, I called and he was clean'.

    If the above happened I would just opt for a FFL transfer.

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