Home Defense Question

[mciaio]

Give me your opinion on this situation. You are on the first floor of your house, you confront an intruder that is going up the stairs, with his back towards you. You kids and wife are upstairs. Is it legal to shoot him in the back?

I am under the impression that you need to be in fear of your life to use deadly physical force. Since he is "retreating" away from you, you are not under threat, but your family is. I assume castle doctrine plays a part in this, but I don't know how. Does it change the situation if the intruder is armed with a knife? with a gun? Unarmed?

Taking opinions now.

[39flathead]

An intruder in your home is assumed to be there to do you harm.

[dlcole]

Personally, I would draw my weapon, yell for him to stop. If he took another step I'd shoot him in the back. I have the right to protect my family.

[PSUWaz00]

Assuming you fired both you're shots from the SxS outside, and he's still going up stairs, drop the gun and call 911

In all honesty, I believe you can be justified if you are in fear for your life OR those around you. I personally would prolly tell him to stop and attempt to hold him there until police arrived, but if he made any sudden movements, bye bye. However, IANAL, but I'm sure someone will chime in.

[Hokkmike]

Since he is ADVANCING towards family members I would shoot. A "stop or I'll shoot" would be appropriate only if he/she is near the bottom of the stairs. Otherwise, the risk of getting to the wife and kids is too great. Shoot.

[mciaio]

ok, what happens if it is not in your home. You are climbing stairs in a theater, you family is at the top in site and you are at the bottom. Guy in the middle of the stairs with a knife screaming and running to the top.

[Steve in PA]

He may be "retreating" away from me, but he is going towards my wife and kids. I will NOT wait to see what his intentions are!

You are allowed to use deadly force to protect the life of another person, as long as that other person would be so justified. Would my wife or kids (if they were capable of defending themselves) be in fear for their life if they see a stranger inside our house walking towards them or standing in their room???

I brought up a situation like this a few weeks ago because an "expert" in a local newspaper article said that just because a person is illegally inside your home, by itself, that is not an immediate need for the use of deadly force. Right, tell that to my dead wife and/or kids as the guy makes it to them while I am yelling, stop, stop!!

If I come face to face with the guy and he freezes, or if he bolts for the door I would not deem that as being justifiable. But if the guy is walking up my stairs or down my hallway??? What if I catch the guy in the act, breaking into my house??? I have to wait and see what what his intentions are once he's inside? Of course, he may be quicker on the trigger and I may be dead, but hopefully my wife will be able to defend herself.

My scenario above is a made up one, but here, I will give you a true life situation that happened a few weeks ago.

It's 9:00 am, my wife and I are going to sleep as I just came home from working the midnight shift. Around 11:00 am, my wife is awoken by noise outside. She wakes me, saying something is going on. Here, a dirt bag across the street was tearing up the inside of his house. His equally dirt bag girlfriend, but also a victim, runs to my neighbors house because he is a LEO, just like me. She then runs back across the street.

My wife witnesses the guy punch his girlfriend in the face. The woman once again runs to my neighbors house, with the guy following her. Everyone is out of my wife's line of sight but she hears a loud noise on our neighbors porch. She then hears the male threaten our neighbor saying, "I know where you live and I'll kill you and your whole family!" My wife is on the phone with 911 and I'm in the process of getting dressed. As I'm getting dressed my neighbor/LEO gets into a physical confrontation with the guy. Before I can make it downstairs, the uniformed LEO's show up and the guy is arrested.

We come to find, the loud noise my wife heard was the guy picking up my neighbors porch furniture and trying to throw it through his large front window! If the female had run to my house and the guy tried to break my widow and if I had been awake and downstairs my duty or off-duty firearm would have been within reach. This guy might not be alive today to face criminal charges!

The quoted sections from the crimes code say that I will have presumed to have a reasonable belief that deadly force is necessary to protect myself if someone is in the process illegally and forcefully entering my residence. The guy is not coming to my house to borrow a cup of sugar! This guy knows that both my neighbor and I are LEO's, but he still pulls this crap with my neighbor??


Taken from PA Crimes Code;
(2.1) Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (2.2), an actor is presumed to have a reasonable belief that deadly force is immediately necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat if both of the following conditions exist:
(i) The person against whom the force is used is in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or has unlawfully and forcefully entered and is present within, a dwelling, residence or occupied vehicle; or the person against whom the force is used is or is attempting to unlawfully and forcefully remove another against that other’s will from the dwelling, residence or occupied vehicle.
(ii) The actor knows or has reason to believe that the unlawful and forceful entry or act is occurring or has occurred.

(2.5) Unless one of the exceptions under paragraph (2.2) applies, a person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter an actor’s dwelling, residence or occupied vehicle or removes or attempts to remove another against that other’s will from the actor’s dwelling, residence or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit:
(i) an act resulting in death or serious bodily injury; or
(ii) kidnapping or sexual intercourse by force or threat.

[sprrdhawk44]

As long as you can articulate that there was an imminent threat of death or severe bodily harm to yourself or a third person, you're okay. This is the standard in the justification of the use of lethal force.

[Steve in PA]

ok, what happens if it is not in your home. You are climbing stairs in a theater, you family is at the top in site and you are at the bottom. Guy in the middle of the stairs with a knife screaming and running to the top.

Read this;

§ 506. Use of force for the protection of other persons.
(a) GENERAL RULE. — The use of force upon or toward the person of another is justifiable to protect a third person when:
(1) the actor would be justified under section 505 (relating to use of force in self-protection) in using such force to protect himself against the injury he believes to be threatened to the person whom he seeks to protect;
(2) under the circumstances as the actor believes them to be, the person whom he seeks to protect would be justified in using such protective force; and
(3) the actor believes that his intervention is necessary for the protection of such other person.
(b) EXCEPTION. — Notwithstanding subsection (a), the actor is not obliged to retreat to any greater extent than the person whom he seeks to protect.


And this addresses (B);

(2.3) An actor who is not engaged in a criminal activity, who is not in illegal possession of a firearm and who is attacked in any place where the actor would have a duty to retreat under paragraph (2)(ii), has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his ground and use force, including deadly force, if:
(i) the actor has a right to be in the place where he was attacked;
(ii) the actor believes it is immediately necessary to do so to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse by force or threat; and
(iii) the person against whom the force is used displays or otherwise uses:
(A) a firearm or replica of a firearm as defined in 42 Pa.C.S. § 9712 (relating to sentences for offenses committed with firearms); or
(B) any other weapon readily or apparently capable of lethal use.

[mciaio]

Steve in PA, your the LEO so I will take your word for it, but I would hesitate shooting someone in front of my house for throwing a chair through my window. I think I would wait until I saw him climbing through it. Although the kill you and your family threat might change that a bit. What a scumbag!