help identify please

**Captain4** · March 13th, 2013, 07:35 AM

Can anyone tell me about this pistol, It's an Iver Johnson, bicycle and firearms, fitchville mass. There are no other markings or numbers on the gun.

**Noah_Zark** · March 13th, 2013, 09:17 AM

It's a nickel-plated low-cost double-action "break-top" revolver of a type that was extremely popular for personal protection in the late 1800s and into the early 1900s. They were generally chambered for either 32 Rim Fire, 38 Rim Fire, 32 Short Colt, 32 S&W, or 38 S&W (not 38 S&W Special).

Manufacturers included Iver Johnson Arms and Cycle Works (yours), Hopkins & Allen, Harrington and Richardson, Forehand & Wadsworth, and Smith and Wesson to name the brands most frequently encountered. Most of these manufacturers except for S&W also made the same guns or slightly different but similar guns in dozens if not hundreds of "store brands" marketed by catalog merchants (e.g., Sears, Roebuck & Co), hardware manufacturers (e.g., Belknap), sporting goods stores (e.g., LL Bean; Abercrombie & Fitch), general mercantile chain stores (e.g., GC Murphy, Woolworth, etc.), and large "mom and pop" merchants.

The type generally uses a V-style mainspring which frequently break or lose their spring force over time. In addition, most of these type of revolvers do not have a positive cylinder stop when the hammer is cocked; the cylinder is stopped in one direction by the bolt (aka cylinder stop) and in the other direction it is stopped by the hand. The pointy thing that engages the cylinder ratchet and rotates the cylinder as the hammer is cocked or the trigger pulled is the "hand." Some manufacturers used it to "stop" the cylinder from turning backwards when the hammer is full cock; this usually resulted in a broken hand tip sooner or later. Finally, some designs do not prevent backwards cylinder rotation; the cylinder is free to turn backwards and is held in place by friction.

Since the ammunition "back in the day" was frequently mercuric primed or chlorate primed, the faces of the cylinder and the bores of these revolvers are most often corroded or pitted.

The take-away: Most are not suitable for shooting.

The type has a definite following in the gun collecting community, but as with anything CONDITION is the major determinant of value. Prices have risen from a general $25 to $75 range 10 to 15 years ago to double that or even more now for Very Good to Excellent examples, dependent on manufacturer. Some S&W examples can bring hundreds of $$$ if in excellent condition.

Hope this helps,

Noah

**knight0334** · March 13th, 2013, 01:28 PM

Noah pretty much covered things.

Since that particular gun has positive stops in the cylinder - it is likely a smokeless powder version. However, many of the older smokeless versions had blackpowder and/or mercury fulminate primers used in them because of the availability of such ammo back then - so corrosion may be an issue.

You should be able to tell if it is a rimfire or centerfire gun by where the firing pin is located. You should be also able to tell what it is specifically chambered as by measuring the bore or chambers.

.32rimfire and .38rimfire were getting rare when they started putting positive lock notches on the cylinder. So my guess would be either .32S&W Long or .38S&W(I'm having difficulty gauging the diameter of the holes in the cylinder).

**Arrdy** · March 13th, 2013, 09:35 PM

Seeing that 'owl's face' on the grip brought a smile ... as a kid I knew a guy that had several IJ as well as some H&R's.

Thanks for sharing.

**Captain4** · March 14th, 2013, 08:11 AM

Thanks for the info guys. When I bought this thing 20 years ago I tried to find ammo for it and if I remember correctly it is a .32 and the best "fitting" ammo was a .32 mag. I have never attempted to fire this thing and don't plan on trying. There is no reason for me to have it so I want to sell it, but I wanted to find out something about it and make sure that I didn't have something special, like an mfg screw up or a limited model, before I do. Would I have to sell it through an ffl?

**Noah_Zark** · March 14th, 2013, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Captain4

Would I have to sell it through an ffl?

Yes, because it will be almost impossible to prove that the revolver was made prior to 1898, the legal date for "Antique" firearms not requiring an FFL for transfer.

You could also sell it directly to a "C&R" FFL licensee, which is a federally licensed collector of "Curios and Relics," which are essentially any firearm made 50 years prior to the current date, with date of manufacture documentable by manufacturer's records; either by S/N, or known documented years of production.

Noah

**knight0334** · March 14th, 2013, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Captain4

Thanks for the info guys. When I bought this thing 20 years ago I tried to find ammo for it and if I remember correctly it is a .32 and the best "fitting" ammo was a .32 mag. I have never attempted to fire this thing and don't plan on trying. There is no reason for me to have it so I want to sell it, but I wanted to find out something about it and make sure that I didn't have something special, like an mfg screw up or a limited model, before I do. Would I have to sell it through an ffl?

.32H&R Mag was designed in 1984, probably 100 years after the design of that gun, and probably more than 40 years after it was made. Absolutely do not shoot 32H&R mag in it - it runs at a much higher pressure than .32S&W Long. And the breaktop design is not capable of handling it.

.32S&W Long is probably the correct cartridge. There is an extremely remote chance it could be chambered in .32H&R(Not Magnum) or .32 Merwin & Hulbert Long.

The .32H&R(Not Magnum) and .32 Merwin & Hulbert Long were basically the same thing as the .32S&W Long with the bullets set at differing OAL between the .32S&W Long, the .32H&R, and .32M&H Long.

The .32H&R Magnum is a beast of its own. It is based on the same diameter case, but is a tad longer and works at much higher pressures.

Info about .32H&R, .32M&H, and .32S&W Long - http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=71902

I'd bet a box of ammo that it is a .32S&W Long.

**Captain4** · March 14th, 2013, 10:43 AM

Thanks again. I believe through what I have seen and what you guys have told me that it is a .32 long. The guy at the shop that I took it to was dropping cartridges in to see what "fit", looking back the fact that he did it this way is troubling, the .32 magnum was for a comparison while trying to identify.