Heavily modified = legal trouble?

[Curmudgeon]

WTF were the other bullets desinged for?

According to That's Just Joe, they're for shooting into the air or through doors.

[GunLawyer001]

Here's a link to the sad story of Harold Fish, who was attacked by a man with two unrestrained dogs in the middle of the woods, and one of his jurors (an idiot soccer mom) stated that the thing that convinced her that he was a murderer was those big nasty 10mm bullets he had in his gun:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15199221/#.UTgae2e3KMU

Jurors can be swayed by a lot of things, not just mods that make the trigger pull lighter or otherwise make an unintended shooting more likely.

That's why I tell students in my workshops that you have a legal right to use your NFA-registered MAC-10 as your main carry gun in a Tactical Speed "Vigilante Of Death" model shoulder holster, with half a dozen spare 30-round mags under the other armpit, but if you ever face a jury, it will sort of look like you weren't exactly shying away from trouble.

[staylo]

Ayoob also said you should think about why you choose defensive ammo(hollowpoints) so you'll have an intelligent answer if you're ever questioned about it after you've discharged your weapon in self defense. (i.e. concerns of through and through endangering someone behind the assailant, ricochet and barrier penetration prevelant with FMJ, fewer shots needed to end an encounter with defensive ammo which reduces the danger to bystanders, etc.) Not something I would have ever thought of before, but if a prosecutor has a hard-on to convict someone of negligent use of deadly force I could see them possibly trying to use the ammo against them.

[staylo]

Gunlawyer posted that story while I was typing and I can see now what Ayoob was talking about. Of all the factors that figured into that case the fact that the ammo was a big deal is amazing to me.

[Lycanthrope]

Sounds like you're already illegal for IDPA as well.......


Lycanrulesthrope

[flyingjunkie]

First off, the obligatory IANAL. With that said...

I've watched a lot of videos by Massad Ayoob and I've read a few of his books including Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry. Seeing how many cases he's been an expert witness in, I like to sometimes look at what he's seen before. The 2 things I've seen him hammer on the most in regards to "customization" are reloads and trigger pull.

In regards to reloads, he claims they become a problem with GSR tests to prove proximity of the attacker. With factory loads, they already have tests showing the distance GSR will travel, whereas handloads do not. Also, there is no way to prove what the actual load was in the bullet. Factory QC is extremely extensive. With reloads, the only records and QC that exists is possibly your own records which, regardless of how maticulous they may be, are often inadmissible because they "could have been altered after the shooting."

As far as trigger pull is concerned, the problem arises when the pull is too light (most everything I've seen and read says never lower than 4# for a defensive pistol). To quote from the book, "Here's one situation I've seen play out over and over again in both civil and criminal cases over the years. Good guy shoots bad guy. Publicity-hungry prosecutor or money-hungry plaintiff's lawyer needs a scapegoat to grab political or financial profit. This attorney fabricates a case of accidental discharge due to recklessly cocking hammer and creating hair trigger (or carrying pistol that would always fire with "hair trigger"). This BS allegation is dignified in court as the accuser's "theory of the case."

Another thing I've heard to never do, or at least be EXTREMELY careful doing is modifying or removing any safety feature (this is especially for you guys that remove the series 80 safeties on you 1911s). The thing you want to watch is to not give anything to the opposing lawyer or prosecutor anything to use against you. Disabling or modifying your safeties can be seen as making your firearm more lethal and dangerous.

As far as anything else is concerned, I can't see changing the barrel or putting new sights on or anything else we do to customize our firearms as "dangerous" especially if done properly and, if required, by a professional gunsmith. Again, IANAL, but I hope this helps.

[Connal]

Goes without saying. IANAL.

I have done minor modifications to my pistol. My defense loads are handloads. A slightly "peppy" charge, behind an XTP HP.

This comes up every few months. A friend of a friend, of a neighbor knows a cop who says . . . . don't use reloads/modify your pistol.

Could they try to use it against you? Of course they could. They could fabricate anything they want against you. That is, sadly, how the court system works. The facts are all there, and two sides try to argue why they are the way they are.

The case that GL cited there is a prime example. The caliber is mentioned, and mentioned in a very. . shall we say demonic way. But it didn't do much good. The fact that the shooter was found guilty is relevant. But the article explains some of the people's thoughts on it.

God forbid I am ever in that situation. If I feel the need to draw, my life or someone elses will be in danger. I want my firearm working to it's highest potential at that point in time.

I do agree that it needs to be explained that HP have less chance to over penetrate, and ricochet. But I will be damned if my firearm, and myself are not in tip top shape, should the need arise.

[imashooter2]

"Hair trigger?" "Accidental discharge?" Seems to me the statement "I shot him on purpose." would be a pretty solid defense against that tactic.

Frankly, if you are in court for a shooting, you better have shot on purpose. If not, a trigger you have to hook to your trailer hitch to pull isn't going to save you.

[normanvin]

So lets get this straight.

bad guy attacks you.

You defend yourself

The da says it might not have been a justifiable shooting.

And the last thing you should worry about is if you painted your gun or put new sights on it.


It seems that if you really need to pull your gun the last thing you need to worry about is if the gun has been modified or if you are using your own reloads.

[MOUNTAINORACLE]

IMHO

I have pinned the grip safeties on all my 1911 pattern firearms that I use for EDC. The Hi Powers I use EDC have the magazine disconnectors removed. My carry ammo is my reloads beause I know my reloads are 100% reliable and not subject to reacall by the manufacturer.

I am not one bit worried about the DA, some gun writer, or what anyone else that thinks this will cause me any legal trouble after a rightous shoot.

After a rightous shot here are a few things you have to worry about:

1). Is does the DA, LEOs, judge, or anyone else that anything to do case want to use your case as a stepping stone to bigger and better things.

2). Can you prove the shot is rightous.

3). Will the LEOs manufacture evidence or lie on the stand.

4). Did I hire the best Defense Attorney.

5). Should I take the stand