Sturmgewehr (MP43/44) vs M1 Carbine

[tsafa]

I am looking to get some opinions on how these two contemporary rifles compare.

The Sturmgewehr gets credited as being the father of "Assault Rifles". I suspect that this has more to do with the success of the AK-47 itself. Mikhail Kalashnikov happened to use the Sturmgewehr as his inspiration rather then an M1 Carbine.

Any other thoughts or opinions on how these two WWII classics compare?

[Willie D]

The M1 Carbine basically uses a pistol round, the Sturmgewehr used a true intermediate rifle cartridge.

Cosmetically the AK resembles the Sturmgewehr but mechanically it's closer to the Garand's action.

[Dr.um]

Also, the US Government, using dozens of sub-contractors, manufactured upwards of 6 million .30 cal M-1 Carbines between late 1942 and 1945. The only piece of durable equipment that was made for that war in greater numbers than the M-1 Carbine was the M-1 steel helmet. Ammunition, though growing more expensive by the day, is still relatively plentiful. In fact, more than a few current manufacturers include .30 Carbine in their catalogs.

I would be quite surprised if there were more than about 10,000 MP-44's manufactured by the heavily bombed and stressed Nazis. Shooting from the hit. Whatever it was, it was way less that 100k. Ammunition is borderline unobtainium at this point, but I suppose if one is rich enough to own AND shoot a gun worth north of $10k, who cares about $5/trigger pull or whatever that would cost.

As far as battle effectiveness, the edge has to go to the hugely available and extensively deployed Carbine. Even the Germans loved them, assigning them an official nomenclature and issuing captured guns to their own troops both during and after the war. However, if you remove the numerical superiority factor, this evaluation might well change.

The sub-rifle caliber round of the MP-44 would be considered the superior of the two cartridges. I have read that it was largely copied for the Russian 7.62x39mm and that the ballistics and speeds are similar, with an edge to the Russian effort.
Further, the MP-44 had a larger magazine capacity (forget how many) and was select fire (I am almost sure) thus making it more powerful all around than the M-1 Carbine. The MP-44 was constructed almost entirely of stamped metal and was thus a good deal heavier than the Carbine.

All in all, I give the edge to the Carbine for ease of mfg, ease of use, ease of training, overall shootability and, confined largely to its INTENDED role as a replacement for the 1911A1, it did more for the US than the MP44 did for the Nazis.
If I had to go into battle, believe it or not, I would choose the Carbine.

Cheers,
D

[DrillNFill]

I've heard stories from multiple sources that the .30 carbine round couldn't penetrate the heavy padding the Chinese troops wore at the chosin reservoir in Korea.

F that. If I was in Korea I think I'd be lobbying to get a Garand.

If money is no object ( and neither is ammo availability) between the two, give me the Sturmgewehr any day. Plus it looks way cooler.

[Mush]

Interesting test on the power of the 30 carbine.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot36.htm

I did my own test with 12 inches of dry telephone yellow pages At 50 yards. I know you are suppose to use wet media to be more accurate but I only had a short time to do this. My stock 30 carbine (CMP rifle) and aging eyes was able to put a 110 gn FMJ 30 carbine round through 9 inches of phone book. The same test with a Marlin 9 Camp Carbine with a 115 gn JHP went through 7 inches of phone book and almost a golf ball sized hole.

IMHO, I would not care to be hit with either. I don't see either bullet to be bouncing off a frozen garment at ranges under 200 yards. YMMV.

[762xIan]

I would be quite surprised if there were more than about 10,000 MP-44's manufactured by the heavily bombed and stressed Nazis. Shooting from the hit. Whatever it was, it was way less that 100k

Wikipedia says about 425,000 were made...my old copy of "Modern Weapons" encyclopedia says 750,000 of all models before the end of the war.

They pop up from time to time in the middle east conflicts, there was a picture of some of the Libyan rebels last year with the hodge podge of weapons and there were a few StG sightings. A large cache of 5,000 popped up in Syria (according to wikipedia) last year.

While few if any made it here, the rifle did become popular after the war everywhere else it seems.

[Dr.um]

I am shocked to hear that number, especially considering that the MP44 was such a late war effort. Thanks for the eye opener on that. Very interesting.

As for the penetrating/killing power of th m1 carbine, I too have read the accounts where an opponent stumbled on forward after absorbing multiple rounds. 30 carbine is never one round manstopper, tis true, but it sure can't be hard to kill a feller with one of these rifles... and a loaded mag. ;-)

[ronbo1012]

As far as the M-1 carbine round not penetrating the quilted garments worn by the Koreans, this was a rumor started by GIs who shot at them and they didn't go down. You put a skinny little guy in big bulky winter clothing. The man's body may only fill a total of half the width of the coat. Bullets may pass through the coat without hitting him.
I saw this explanation on a pretty interesting show on the history channel a while ago.

[Snowy]

Mechanically (I'm not 100% sure, correct me if I'm wrong) I don't believe the STG44 and the M1Carbine or Garand aren't a like except that they are all mag feed. The Carbine and the Garand are rotating bolt design and the STG 44 is blowback.

I heard that the STG 44 was developed by 2 German brothers. During the war one of the brothers was abducted by the Russians and sent to Kalashnikov's factory. Here he was forced to work with Kalashnikov and that is how they developed the AK-47.

[tsafa]

The .30 carbine seems to come pretty close to the power of .223 out of an M4.

I have clocked and calculate .223 Tulammo at about 1,055 ft-lbs out of my M4 with 16" barrel. The .30 carbine is rated at about 900 ft-lbs in Wikipidia.


7.62x39 is suppose to come in at about 1,500 ft-lbs from an AK-47. I clock and calculate Tulammo at about 1,300 ft-lbs from my AK-47.


I have not clocked and calculated .30 carbine. I suppose all things being equal... it would probably come in at about 700 ft-lbs rather the the 900 quoted on Wiki.