Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Should I shoot or should I store M1911A1 Army (1944), Ortgies 7.65mm, Rug. Sec. Six

    Looks like I'm inheriting some guns. I know the M1911 was my dads from when he was in WWII (SN 179XXXX). I think he was given the Ortgies (Deutsche Werke Aktiengesellschaft Werk Erfurt) around WWII (SN 49XXX). The Ruger Security Six 4" is newer (I believe around 1968). The Ruger is nearly new in box, and I have the box. The Ortgies, looks pretty dang new as well (it has the OH medallion in the handle). The M1911 certainly looks like all original and in good conditions (i.e. no rust, pitting, bluing is matt finish so I don't know if that is new or worn). I've never shot a pistol only shotguns and rifles, but I wouldn't mind starting up on the pistols. But if these are collector (doubt the Ruger is, looks too new), how much will shooting them diminish their value? If they are collectors then I suppose I would probably sell to a collector rather than me shooting them to no value. These guns sat in a closet for at least 40to 50 years unused but well cared for. I plan on taking them to a gun smith and have them inspected to make sure they are safe, operational, etc...and have him or someone else teach me how to clean them.

    I realize these are broad questions, but any insight would be welcome.

    I gotta say, that Ortgies is one sleek looking gun, with no protruding components. I can't imagine why James Bond (internet research) would have switched from that to the PPK that has an exposed hammer.

    Oh yeah, I have the holster for the M1911 stamped with Enger-Kress 1944 in it. If that makes any difference on shooting or storing the M1911.

    Cheers,
    Jeff.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Should I shoot or should I store M1911A1 Army (1944), Ortgies 7.65mm, Rug. Sec. S

    Basically my opinion since I am not a collector (I am a procurer, though). It's a good idea to have them looked at to be sure everything on them match. It can make guns more valuable if the frame matches the slide, barrel, etc. Original grips, stock, and parts also make the guns more valuable. Obviously, the appearance will play a large part in the value. Pits caused by rust is a big value killer, and stocks or grips that have been changed or refinished will also take some value away. definitely a good idea to have them safety checked. If they are modified in any way that you are unaware, it could cause some problems. Not my area of expertise by any means, just my personal opinion.
    BCM and Glock...for a bigger pile of 'cold dead hands' brass.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Should I shoot or should I store M1911A1 Army (1944), Ortgies 7.65mm, Rug. Sec. S

    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidate View Post
    Ortgies is one sleek looking gun,

    Oh yeah, I have the holster for the M1911 stamped with Enger-Kress 1944 in it. If that makes any difference on shooting or storing the M1911.

    Cheers,
    Jeff.
    These two you should definitely have an expert look at, just in case there is something to them. The German pistol wasn't produced for very long and is pretty old. Having the holster with the 1911 will help.
    BCM and Glock...for a bigger pile of 'cold dead hands' brass.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Should I shoot or should I store M1911A1 Army (1944), Ortgies 7.65mm, Rug. Sec. S

    I personally think it would be a shame for you to sell them. I know if I had the gun my grandfather used in WWII, I would keep it and pass it on to future generations. In the end it all depends on what you want..

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Should I shoot or should I store M1911A1 Army (1944), Ortgies 7.65mm, Rug. Sec. S

    Quote Originally Posted by jb44336 View Post
    I personally think it would be a shame for you to sell them. I know if I had the gun my grandfather used in WWII, I would keep it and pass it on to future generations. In the end it all depends on what you want..
    Yea, I'd be keeping them myself. The only older guns I have are a couple Win. mod. 70's, an Astra A-80, and an Astra A-200. They were owned by my dad and my uncle. They aren't going anywhere.
    BCM and Glock...for a bigger pile of 'cold dead hands' brass.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Should I shoot or should I store M1911A1 Army (1944), Ortgies 7.65mm, Rug. Sec. S

    The old girl deserves respect. If it checks out ok, I'd only run some mild handloads through it, say on the 4th of July or Memorial Day.

    My father gave me his 1892 Winchester rifle that I learned to shoot with .... I'll never sell it. It's family.
    “When a man cannot chose, he ceases to be a man.”

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Should I shoot or should I store M1911A1 Army (1944), Ortgies 7.65mm, Rug. Sec. S

    As much as the sentiment might mean. I would have to at least check into seeing how much I could get for them. With gun prices what they are now. You may find that you just inherited a small fortune, and, this was your grandfathers way of making sure you were well taken care of.

    I tell my kids all the time, that I ain't leaving them any money. But they can have a auction for the stuff I have in the house after I die, and they should make a small fortune off of it.
    The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control....
    The day they want my guns, they'll have to bring theirs!!!
    Proud to be One of the 3%

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Should I shoot or should I store M1911A1 Army (1944), Ortgies 7.65mm, Rug. Sec. S

    A friend of mine used to shoot his 1918 Colt 1911 once in a while at a local IDPA match. Kept it cleaned and oiled with lead bullet reloads. If you value it , just don't shoot any old military 45 ammo as it is corrosive. Any milspec parts that need replacing are always available at Brownells etc. Forgot year when it started using noncorr. primers. Clean with a solvent (for corr. ammo ) now just to remove any residue lurking in barrel, breech area etc. Tooth brush is a good tool. The Ruger is a great revolver..... shoot it and you will have many years of enjoyment. This year I took my Dad's deer rifle out and shot a nice 8 in Clinton Cty. He's been gone 12 yrs now but I feel he was looking over me.afish4570

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Should I shoot or should I store M1911A1 Army (1944), Ortgies 7.65mm, Rug. Sec. S

    A friend of mine used to shoot his 1918 Colt 1911 once in a while at a local IDPA match. Kept it cleaned and oiled with lead bullet reloads. If you value it , just don't shoot any old military 45 ammo as it is corrosive. Any milspec parts that need replacing are always available at Brownells etc. Forgot year when it started using noncorr. primers. Clean with a solvent (for corr. ammo ) now just to remove any residue lurking in barrel, breech area etc. Tooth brush is a good tool. The Ruger is a great revolver..... shoot it and you will have many years of enjoyment. This year I took my Dad's deer rifle out and shot a nice 8 in Clinton Cty. He's been gone 12 yrs now but I feel he was looking over me.
    Don't store any guns in holsters. Rust from the tanning chemicals can wreck a non stainless steel gun.......Don't believe in selling my family heirlooms. If you need the money take a 2nd job, work some ot or stay in the house.....What seems like a high profit today will shock you when you buy your next gun and you really didn't make that much.afish4570

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Should I shoot or should I store M1911A1 Army (1944), Ortgies 7.65mm, Rug. Sec. S

    Quote Originally Posted by Elucidate View Post
    Looks like I'm inheriting some guns. I know the M1911 was my dads from when he was in WWII (SN 179XXXX). ... The M1911 certainly looks like all original and in good conditions (i.e. no rust, pitting, bluing is matt finish so I don't know if that is new or worn). I've never shot a pistol only shotguns and rifles, but I wouldn't mind starting up on the pistols. But if these are collector (doubt the Ruger is, looks too new), how much will shooting them diminish their value?...
    The M1911 made during W.W.II was made to the same standards as 1911s made today, except for looser tolerances and the finish. Some may argue they're better. As far as the metallurgy and manufacturing technique, Colt is the only one I'm aware of that makes an exact copy of the gun you have (model 70 reissue), right down to the machining process. To that end, it's damn close but not exact...the original tools & dies are long gone. Colt now uses CNC machining, but otherwise it's an exact copy. The Colt example here is stainless, it will freely interchange parts with any W.W.II 1911 example. Also note I have a tendency to abbreviate when I get on a roll. For the sake of this discussion, and except where noted otherwise, all the pistols in the post that I'm discussing are model M1911A1s, wartime manufacture.

    The finish on W.W.II issue M1911s is a phosphate coating that's an almost porous coating that has a color ranging from darker gray to almost black. When oiled or greased, the lubricant soaks into the finish and effectively seals it. At the same time, the sealer may create a slightly greenish hue to the color. See images below for a rough idea on color variation.

    As far as firing, I can't make a recommendation regarding whether to fire yours or not. I can say from experience I've fired confirmed wartime Ithaca, US&S and Remington 1911A1s. They all performed exceptional, and frankly, I couldn't notice any additional wear or evidence of firing. The ammunition was recent 45 ACP (modern lead styphnate primers), so additional bore corrosion was a non-issue. Oh, and they have a bit of a bark. Don't be discouraged if you find accuracy a tad challenging at first, particularly if you're new to handguns. A lot of shooters require recurrent familiarization with them to retain proficiency.

    I made some interesting observations: don't poo-poo a corroded barrel until you've tried using it first. Much to my consternation, one 1911 had a heavily pitted barrel, but was also the most accurate. And, I've shot enough W.W.II 45s that firing a newer 45 required some adjustment on my part. Summary: there really is a difference.

    Regarding value: if original, it's quite valuable...as in over a kilobuck if it reliably goes *BANG* when fed ammunition. Some 1911s can be disproportionately valuable depending on the markings (examples)†. However, if it's had non-reversible modifications, the value plummets down to it's intrinsic value as a 45 caliber handgun. Personally, as another poster pointed out: if it has provenance within your family, I wouldn't sell it for any reason. We frequently see posters lamenting the loss of dad's/grandpa's _insert gun model here_ , but no one expressing relief it's gone and never to return.

    Below are a few typical wartime 1911s. Note that some may have what appears to be a blemish around the slide stop, and even the muzzle. This is due to the heat treatment process, and was not considered cause for rejection during the war.

    And now the images. Sorry, I know they're getting shopworn...I need more recent images.


    Typical 1943 Remington-Rand M1911A1 in decent condition (image: authors collection)


    Wartime Colt 1911. (Image: internet source)


    (Top) Colt series 70 re-issue in stainless-disregard for the context of this thread, (Bottom) Union Switch & Signal 1943 wartime 1911. Note heavily worn finish. (image: authors collection)


    1943 Ithaca M1911A1 - note heat treatment discoloration around slide stop notch and slide at muzzle end. (image: authors collection)

    † Singer #1 recently came on the market, it's probably just as well I wasn't aware of it. Upshot: I still have my house.

    Closing comment: Before disassembly, Google: 1911 idiot scratch.
    Gloria: "65 percent of the people murdered in the last 10 years were killed by hand guns"
    Archie Bunker: "would it make you feel better, little girl, if they was pushed outta windows?"

    http://www.moviewavs.com/TV_Shows/Al...he_Family.html

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