So what is the law

[ray h]

Everyone assumes the LEO is running the SN of the Firearm in the PA sales data base...what if they are running the firearm to see if its stolen or wanted and thats all they are making sure of? Same as they do when they run the tag to your vehicle.

Your license plate is in open view on your vehicle, they aren't removing or taking your property to run your registration information.
Without reasonable suspicion they do not have legal access to anything that's not in plain view or not relevant to the reason you are being detained.
Demanding your firearm to run the serial number is no different than an officer detaining you for a simple speeding stop and demanding to go through your wallet or a purse. The only reason they get by with taking a firearm from people for "officer safety".

[wew3]

JenniferG, unless you meant illegal instead of legal, that section specifically prohibits the creation of a database, and records cannot be retained unless the attempting purchaser is prohibited. However, that is the illegal database that the firearm would have been checked against.

If you did mean legal, then you need to reread it.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/pa-suprem...t/1176361.html

While I agree that this database should be illegal, the PA Supreme Court has ruled that it is indeed legal.

Bill

[XavierBK]

It is also illegal to carry a firearm in a vehicle w/o a valid LTCF. So until the LEO can validate your LTCF are they supposed to take your word on it? It is for "officer safety" and your safety. It would be a long walk backwards to the RPC if your pcic/ncic check came back with a warrant or a PFA. And once they have the gun in possession why not run it to see if its stolen?

Anything else in your car with a serial number? How about they run the serial of your GPS, your cell phone, your laptop, etc. just to make sure they're not stolen. You've got nothing to hide, right?

[ray h]

It is also illegal to carry a firearm in a vehicle w/o a valid LTCF. So until the LEO can validate your LTCF are they supposed to take your word on it? It is for "officer safety" and your safety. It would be a long walk backwards to the RPC if your pcic/ncic check came back with a warrant or a PFA. And once they have the gun in possession why not run it to see if its stolen?

Go ahead and tell me you think it's ok for them to check everything you have with you to see if it's stolen?
It's like this, simply having a firearm in your possession is not evidence of a crime.
As for "officer's safety and my safety", there's alot less of a chance my gun will shoot anyone while in it's holster.

[khankewycz]

It is also illegal to carry a firearm in a vehicle w/o a valid LTCF. So until the LEO can validate your LTCF are they supposed to take your word on it? It is for "officer safety" and your safety. It would be a long walk backwards to the RPC if your pcic/ncic check came back with a warrant or a PFA. And once they have the gun in possession why not run it to see if its stolen?

Bacon?

Your license plate is in open view on your vehicle, they aren't removing or taking your property to run your registration information.
Without reasonable suspicion they do not have legal access to anything that's not in plain view or not relevant to the reason you are being detained.
Demanding your firearm to run the serial number is no different than an officer detaining you for a simple speeding stop and demanding to go through your wallet or a purse. The only reason they get by with taking a firearm from people for "officer safety".

Which even the ability to run your tag without just cause is frankly bullshit. But how many officers run tags before the stop...

[ray h]

Bacon?





.

I considered that as well except in an earlier post, in another thread, he stated he has gotten his LTCF.

[Statkowski]

It is also illegal to carry a firearm in a vehicle w/o a valid LTCF.

To quote a line from Porgy and Bess, "It ain't necessarily so." There's more than one exception in the law for carrying/transporting a firearm in a vehicle without an LTCF.

So until the LEO can validate your LTCF are they supposed to take your word on it?

Bingo! Give that man a cigar. In this country one is presumed innocent until known otherwise.

It is for "officer safety" and your safety.

Taking my handgun out of its holster and letting someone manhandle it is for my safety? Check some of the other sites and see how many so-called "accidental" discharges are conducted by the so-called experts - including handcuffed prisoners being shot in the back because the so-called expert failed to maintain trigger discipline.

It would be a long walk backwards to the RPC if your pcic/ncic check came back with a warrant or a PFA.

And on what lawful grounds would they be conducting a PCIC/NCIC check?

And once they have the gun in possession why not run it to see if its stolen?

It's called PROBABLE CAUSE, and you need that to conduct a search.

[GunLawyer001]

It is also illegal to carry a firearm in a vehicle w/o a valid LTCF. So until the LEO can validate your LTCF are they supposed to take your word on it? It is for "officer safety" and your safety. It would be a long walk backwards to the RPC if your pcic/ncic check came back with a warrant or a PFA. And once they have the gun in possession why not run it to see if its stolen?

The courts have been overly accommodating to police in the context of traffic stops, but at some point, we're going to see a case where a guy is prosecuted for having a stolen gun where the serial number was covered by the grips, and the cop unscrewed the grip screws to read the number and run it. And that case will test the notion that you can always run the serial number once you have the gun in your hand, because "why not?"

The reason why courts allow cops to disarm people during traffic stops is "officer safety". Routinely running the serial numbers to see if they're stolen or "registered" has nothing to do with officer safety, and in my opinion is an abuse of an exception to the search & seizure rules.

There was a case where cops in an apartment (where they had permission to be) turned some stereo equipment around on a shelf so they could read the serial number. Turned out to be stolen. The case was tossed because the act of turning the stereo around was an illegal search. No warrant. No exigent circumstances. No "plain view" exception because there was no reason to believe it was stolen just from seeing it. They were just fishing.

So my advice, to people with stolen handguns, is to make sure that you get the biggest grips that you're comfortable with. You'll probably go to jail anyway, but hey, don't buy stolen guns, and we could use the precedent. For everyone else, get the big grips that happen to cover the serial number, and make it harder for cops to misuse the registry. (Do not, under any circumstances, alter or deface the serial number, or any other markings.)

There may be a rule against intentionally blocking the serial numbers (I dunno, it hasn't come up lately), but there's definitely a rule against seizing guns just because the Record of Sale Database isn't current. You guys stop first.

[ray h]

Ok the probable cause would be the reason for the stop...yes when you get pulled over for your traffic violation the LEO runs your name thru PCIC/NCIC along with BMV. Technically, a ticket is an arrest and you get a court date. As far as a firearm in the car, dont tell them if you dont want them to know. Once a known weapon is in the car its a different ballgame. I know its been a long debate wether or not stopping someone to validate their LTCF when they are carrying their firearm is legal. And this is almost the same, except in this circumstance the driver offers this information instead of the LEO observing it. I dont think, for now anyway, that a judge will say its illegal for a LEO to detain a firearm while conducting an arrest. And maybe your right, it would be enough for the LEO to run just your LTCF for validation without running the firearm itself. But i never heard of anyone getting arrested for having a stolen gun but possessed a valid LTCF, yet. Maybe there will be case law where a judge might throw out the cause for running the gun after the LTCF had been validated. And you need REASONABLE SUSPICION to investigate a person or "terry stop" and if you feel they have a firearm "terry frisk"...Running a name through PICI/NCIC would be part of the investigation and not considered a search..in fact if you dont identify your self to the LEO and they confirm you are who you say you are you can be taken to be identified...so why is running a sn on a firearm a search? Its illegal to possess a firearm w/o a sn or one that has been tampered with right? so whats the reasoning behind that?

A traffic stop is a form of detention but it's not an arrest, matter of fact a traffic citation replaces an arrest. Many, many case studies show that the police can not search anything in your vehicle that is not in plain site unless they have a reason to. A traffic stop by itself is not reason. Removing an item from someone's pocket or a purse would be a search, so, removing something from a holster would be a search as well. The officer had better have reasonable suspicion that I have commited a crime besides speeding. Again, carrying a firearm does not constitute reasonable suspicion. The police and the courts know there is no reasonable suspicion to search a person's holster so they always fall back on "officer safety" to get it through the system. "Officer safety" is a sham to allow them to do what they do without a law suit.
No one has been arrested for carrying a gun that isn't "registered" to them because there is no statute to charge them with but if you do some research on here you will find a few people who have had their firearms taken from them, and they still weren't charged with anything, because there's nothing to charge them with.

[twency]

... I dont know how someone could have a firearm confiscated without being arrested for something. ...

I have read several reports of this happening to PAFOAers. Officer runs pistol against RoS database, gun comes back not "registered", officer takes it and demands proof of ownership before returning it. It's not right, but apparently it does happen with some frequency.